Newbie question

[John148]

Thanks everyone for the great information. I need to look into this more. I can see going with a bigger pex that I could go with a smaller circulator which in the long run should be a good thing. I have a lot of calls to do tomorrow. I thought this would be easy

 

[maple1]

I think we have yet to hear what kind of pipe will be in ground. All kinds of potential to lose most of your heat before it hits the house. Anything wrapped is more bad news - a closed cell foam product is a must.

Good luck.

 

[John148]

I think we have yet to hear what kind of pipe will be in ground. All kinds of potential to lose most of your heat before it hits the house. Anything wrapped is more bad news - a closed cell foam product is a must.

Good luck.

I have been looking at both "5 wrap" and "closed cell". The furnace dealer sells the 5 wrap and used it with his underground systems and said he likes it? Closed cell looks to me to be better but 2 times the cost. It seems neather have any info on heat loss over x amount of feet and me going 230' one direction would be very beneficial. Anyone have any data to support one over the other?

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

John148:
Just for giggles I would post a sketch of your layout here and see what other options you have. Much experience here and could save you a few thousand bucks and much more over the length of your boiler life.
BTW-what outdoor model where you looking at?

 

[John148]

John148:
Just for giggles I would post a sketch of your layout here and see what other options you have. Much experience here and could save you a few thousand bucks and much more over the length of your boiler life.
BTW-what outdoor model where you looking at?

Crown Royal 7400 is what I'm leaning toward.

 

[Tennman]

Geez John, From the pex sizing, to acceptable flow velocities, to underground insulation, was this boiler professional in the pizza business before he decided to sell boilers? For our 205kbtu rated boiler, I used an 80% knockdown and sized lines and pump around ~180kbtu. Our loop is about a 370' round trip. Per the Taco datasheet 1 1/4" pex was marginal requiring higher velocities than preferred. I should have used 1 1/2" to reduce head and velocity, but the Taco 0013 does the job but we could have had a more efficient system. I appears there are lots of "professionals" out there that cut corners to keep the system price point low for unknowing customers. The Taco Pump Datasheet has very simple hand calculations and for about 1 hour of your time you'll know how to spot a "professional". All the guys here are giving you good advice... especially Chris's. I'm old enough to remember an old TV show.... "You have much to learn grasshopper." Take your time.

 

[John148]

Geez John, From the pex sizing, to acceptable flow velocities, to underground insulation, was this boiler professional in the pizza business before he decided to sell boilers? For our 205kbtu rated boiler, I used an 80% knockdown and sized lines and pump around ~180kbtu. Our loop is about a 370' round trip. Per the Taco datasheet 1 1/4" pex was marginal requiring higher velocities than preferred. I should have used 1 1/2" to reduce head and velocity, but the Taco 0013 does the job but we could have had a more efficient system. I appears there are lots of "professionals" out there that cut corners to keep the system price point low for unknowing customers. The Taco Pump Datasheet has very simple hand calculations and for about 1 hour of your time you'll know how to spot a "professional". All the guys here are giving you good advice... especially Chris's. I'm old enough to remember an old TV show.... "You have much to learn grasshopper." Take your time.

Lol, thank you Master How many sq ft are you heating? I have gotten a lot of great advise here. I had another plumber come out and look at my existing propane boiler and he said its undersized for my sized house. Also I did find 1 1/2 ob pex for about $2.50 less than what I would pay for 1 1/4 ob pex so I'm thinking I should go with that size.

 

[John148]

Geez John, From the pex sizing, to acceptable flow velocities, to underground insulation, was this boiler professional in the pizza business before he decided to sell boilers? For our 205kbtu rated boiler, I used an 80% knockdown and sized lines and pump around ~180kbtu. Our loop is about a 370' round trip. Per the Taco datasheet 1 1/4" pex was marginal requiring higher velocities than preferred. I should have used 1 1/2" to reduce head and velocity, but the Taco 0013 does the job but we could have had a more efficient system. I appears there are lots of "professionals" out there that cut corners to keep the system price point low for unknowing customers. The Taco Pump Datasheet has very simple hand calculations and for about 1 hour of your time you'll know how to spot a "professional". All the guys here are giving you good advice... especially Chris's. I'm old enough to remember an old TV show.... "You have much to learn grasshopper." Take your time.

Also how many cord do you burn for a winter?

 

[Tennman]

Others posting on your thread qualify as Masters, I've just made enough mistakes to qualify as "seasoned". You're getting advice from guys who make a living doing this, for me it's a productive hobby (totally unlike my other hobbies!). Our home is ~4800, but is pretty inefficient by choice. Couldn't bear to cover up our lovely wavy glass windows so we choose to enjoy fresh, drafty air. I'd say we use about 6-7 chord/year depending on winter severity (bad last year). Last year it was going into our 6th year and I'd say we really didn't have our act all together until the 3rd or 4th year. I built a spreadsheet of the Taco Datasheet PDF which your welcome to if your at all comfortable with spreadsheets. It allows you to see for the quantity of energy your trying to move to heat your home the necessary gpm at an given water temp, consequent flow velocity given the pex size, and estimate the head required for your system. When you find a "professional" installer of these types of systems he'll be able to tell you the required gpm at an assumed water temp to meet your home's energy demand. Like the guys who replied to you above. Do some word searches here on wrapped insulation performance vs polyurethane foam. Get some fundamental knowledge here so you'll know when a boiler salesman is blowing smoke up yer skirt. Which makes me wonder, what is the origin of that saying..... Oh well... you get it.

 

[maple1]

Lol, thank you Master How many sq ft are you heating? I have gotten a lot of great advise here. I had another plumber come out and look at my existing propane boiler and he said its undersized for my sized house. Also I did find 1 1/2 ob pex for about $2.50 less than what I would pay for 1 1/4 ob pex so I'm thinking I should go with that size.

What is ob pex?

 

[John148]

What is ob pex?

I used ob for oxygen barrier. Has anyone ever dealt with Outdoor Furnace Supply? That's where I'm looking to buy the 1 1/2" insulated pex.

 

[maple1]

I used ob for oxygen barrier. Has anyone ever dealt with Outdoor Furnace Supply? That's where I'm looking to buy the 1 1/2" insulated pex.

Yes. I bought a sidearm heat exchanger from them. Great service and nice item.

But I would stay away from wrapped pipe.

If you really don't want to send most of your boiler heat into the ground on the way to the house, you will likely be looking at over $3000 just for the inground piping - maybe close to $5k although I haven't gone pircing it myself. This is one place you do not want to skimp or cheap out on - read the 'underground' sticky at the top of the forum if you haven't already, for more on that. Some have been there & done that & wrote about it so others can avoid a bad situation.

 

[John148]

Yes. I bought a sidearm heat exchanger from them. Great service and nice item.

But I would stay away from wrapped pipe.

If you really don't want to send most of your boiler heat into the ground on the way to the house, you will likely be looking at over $3000 just for the inground piping - maybe close to $5k although I haven't gone pircing it myself. This is one place you do not want to skimp or cheap out on - read the 'underground' sticky at the top of the forum if you haven't already, for more on that. Some have been there & done that & wrote about it so others can avoid a bad situation.

Thanks

 

[John148]

Does anyone have experience with Taco, Grundfos or Badger circulator pumps? Is one better than the other? Badger and Grundfos have a 3 speed pump. Is that good? It looks like Taco cost like 2 times the other two.

 

[maple1]

Never heard of badger, never used taco, and hard to beat a Grundfoss 3 speed. One came built into my (expensive) LK810 loading unit, I've got one on my electric boiler, and my load pump used to be one but I replaced it with a Grundfoss Alpha. (Any load circ that sees varying loads should be a variable speed such as an Alpha, IMO & BTW).

Are you sure you're comparing the same specs of pumps across the brands? I kind of thought Taco & Grundfoss were similar pricing on similar capacity pumps.

 

[brant2000]

I've never heard of Badger pumps; but otherwise Taco, Grundfos, Wilo, and Armstrong probably cover about 99% of the pumps you'll find (Taco and Grundfos being the most common). Most will agree that Grundfos are on par or possibly better than the others, but I think all will do the job - you just need to make sure you know what the job is (ie. pump head and flow characteristics) and whether some type of "smart" controls (delta T, delta P, etc.) are beneficial.

 

[John148]

I've never heard of Badger pumps; but otherwise Taco, Grundfos, Wilo, and Armstrong probably cover about 99% of the pumps you'll find (Taco and Grundfos being the most common). Most will agree that Grundfos are on par or possibly better than the others, but I think all will do the job - you just need to make sure you know what the job is (ie. pump head and flow characteristics) and whether some type of "smart" controls (delta T, delta P, etc.) are beneficial.

I think I am. I got mixed up on the name Badger. The pumps I'm comparing are the Taco 0014 and GPD25-10SFC. Not sure but I think the 0014 is single speed and 25 gpm? And the GPD25 low speed 22, med 26 and high 32gpm? The Taco is around $300 and the GPD25 is around $125. Am I comparing apples to oranges?

 

[brant2000]

Something is fishy about the product data that they show on the Badger website. If you take a look at their product (broken link removed to http://www.badgerinsulatedpipe.com/media/2014%20Insulated%20Pipe%20Catalog-%20Final.pdf) they mention that these are "private label pumps", but also include curves for them. You'll notice that the curves don't come close to matching the performance spec's they show on the product (broken link removed to http://www.badgerinsulatedpipe.com/GPD25-10SFC-3-speed-34GPM-PumpsBadger-GPD25-10SFC.htm). It looks like these pumps are standard Grundfos UP's.

 

[John148]

Something is fishy about the product data that they show on the Badger website. If you take a look at their product (broken link removed to http://www.badgerinsulatedpipe.com/media/2014%20Insulated%20Pipe%20Catalog-%20Final.pdf) they mention that these are "private label pumps", but also include curves for them. You'll notice that the curves don't come close to matching the performance spec's they show on the product (broken link removed to http://www.badgerinsulatedpipe.com/GPD25-10SFC-3-speed-34GPM-PumpsBadger-GPD25-10SFC.htm). It looks like these pumps are standard Grundfos UP's.

Yes, I saw that. I talked to a local guy and he said the Badger pumps are made by Goundfos? What does UP stand for?

 

[brant2000]

It's just a model/family of pumps. (http://www.grundfos.com/products/find-product/up.html) When comparing, you really need to take a look at the pump curves to make sure they are capable of providing your ideal flow rate using the calculated system head loss. Although there may be slight variations in efficiencies and flow curves, it's really going to come down to the relative motor size. If you're looking to move around 30 GPM at over 20' TDH, you're talking about a much larger pump than these typical 1/25 or 1/12 HP circulators. That would probably require something in the ballpark of 1/2 HP, with prices probably starting around $500.

 

[John148]

It's just a model/family of pumps. (http://www.grundfos.com/products/find-product/up.html) When comparing, you really need to take a look at the pump curves to make sure they are capable of providing your ideal flow rate using the calculated system head loss. Although there may be slight variations in efficiencies and flow curves, it's really going to come down to the relative motor size. If you're looking to move around 30 GPM at over 20' TDH, you're talking about a much larger pump than these typical 1/25 or 1/12 HP circulators. That would probably require something in the ballpark of 1/2 HP, with prices probably starting around $500.

Thanks.

 

[salecker]

Hi John
When i did my underground lines i wanted to go with 1 1/4",the price was very high.So i went with 2 1" lines for supply and 2 1" for return.This gives some insurance if one of the lines springs a leak it could be taken out of the run and still have a 1" supply or return to use till summer when you can repair it.
Thomas

 

[John148]

Hi John
When i did my underground lines i wanted to go with 1 1/4",the price was very high.So i went with 2 1" lines for supply and 2 1" for return.This gives some insurance if one of the lines springs a leak it could be taken out of the run and still have a 1" supply or return to use till summer when you can repair it.
Thomas

Good idea. Has many people had much trouble with leaking pex other than ones punctured by rocks?

 

[alaskawild]

John148...

I agree! Yes 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" PEX is pricy! Try using multiple runs of 1" PEX. I've done this in the past with Rifeng 1" PEX and it works just fine and the price is right Just from what little I've seen from the question above, one run of 1" PEX would be woefully undersized! You do not need to move any more btu's than your heating requirements demand. Moving 300,000 plus btu's can not be done with one, 1" supply line over that distance and probably is not needed.

 

[Letsburnwoodnotoil]

I'm installing a 360,000BTU outdoor wood/coal boiler. The insulated underground lines will have a run of 230'. I'm planning on using 1" supply and return. Does anyone know if 1" lines will be big enough? My house is around 4300 sq ft and currently is heated with 145,000 BTU propane and has 4 circulators and one that circulates thru the indirect hot water heater.

1.5 inch MINIMUM for the BTUH you mention. And still there may / will be a larger than normal pump. Remember! 1 gallon raised 1 degree is only about 8.5 BTU!! So if yu have a 20 delta, you will need to pump almost exactly 36GPM through this line to utilize the boiler's output.