Newbie advice sought. Looking to replace forest eater...

[heaterman]

sounds like a plan. How do you get the stack off to get the creosote out? The darn thing is not insulated and I get a ton of buildup without a double wall. Will the building retain enough heat to solve that problem? They seem to only have single wall and not sure if a double wall connection for the top will adapt as it goes through the roof. Also no sure how to plumb an intake in the back.

..

Getting the Hardy inside will reduce creosote somewhat simply due to less cooling of the stack. I think you could probably get a single wall x Class A chimney adapter and go up with insulated pipe but you will still get a gob of creosote in the stack. It's just the nature of the beast.
I don't know as I would spend the money on it.

However.....if you do put it inside and run the stack up through the roof, make sure you allow a lot of clearance to combustible materials around it. Keep anything that will burn at least 6" if not more, away from the stack. Reduced clearance would probably be a logical reason to go with a Class A chimney.

 

[bhanks55]

how large of a building is recommended for most applications? Assuming the largest unit (Garn) how big of a building would I need if I was to house that unit, a cord of wood,etc, in the future? Basically, if I am going to the trouble and expense of building a building I figure I should just build once.

 

[maple1]

I would build it big enough to hold my whole winters wood, if I had the room.

Or, if you don't want to build the whole 'boiler shed' itself that big, add on a simple wood shed type thing so you could at least get the whole winters wood under a roof & easy to get at from the boiler. Moving firewood in the winter to burn it is an absolute drag - even worse if it's full of ice & snow. If it's warm & dry it will burn a LOT better, and it will make feeding a lot easier.

 

[bhanks55]

Also got some nice confirmation on where my heat losses are. The second story peak is my largest heat loss. I noted there was never frost there (obviously a bad sign, but it melted a 1/4 inch of ice). OUCH. cant imagine the heat load im losing there. No real way to insulate more either. They boxed in all the rafters with drywall and there isn't an actual attic.

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

I wonder what the temp difference would be if you ran new thermo pex or logster above ground temporally.

 

[STIHLY DAN]

Also got some nice confirmation on where my heat losses are. The second story peak is my largest heat loss. I noted there was never frost there (obviously a bad sign, but it melted a 1/4 inch of ice). OUCH. cant imagine the heat load im losing there. No real way to insulate more either. They boxed in all the rafters with drywall and there isn't an actual attic.

Is there any space up there at all? If so they can drill a 3" whole from the outside and blow in insulation.

 

[bhanks55]

Is there any space up there at all? If so they can drill a 3" whole from the outside and blow in insulation.

Problem is no attic per se. Gonna get a foam contractor to see what he can do when money allows. This winter has bled me dry.

 

[lexybird]

Those would be full 4'x4'x8' cords. One of my sons has an H4 that came with the house when he bought it. He's saving his shekels until he can buy something else but in the meantime he burns about a cord and a half per week in this kind of weather.
They are literally "forest eaters". We've had the combustion analyzer stuck in the flue pipe a few times just playing with different types, and dryness of wood. The best efficiency we ever observed with that thing was 34% with seasoned oak. Most times it is under 30%. ....There oughta be a law.....The fuel consumption is absolutely criminal with those things.

That's incredible to me .. I would think an open campfire would not even use that much wood in such a short time

 

[Frozen Canuck]

That's incredible to me .. I would think an open campfire would not even use that much wood in such a short time

Yes most have no idea just how much wood an OWB will go through. Now factor in standby losses from the shell as these all sit outside exposed to whatever the weather is & the typical <30% can quickly become <20%. Makes one wonder what is really going through the minds of folks who get upset at OWB's having a bad rep. They earned it. Yep there oughta be a law indeed.

 

[bhanks55]

Ad that to how they recommend the lines be installed. Just put them in a pipe and foam the ends to keep the water out. Seriously, my local hardy dealer is saying that. So factor in that loss too. Crazy thing is even at that horrid efficiency I can BUY wood here right now and save half compared to my 80% lp furnace. Nutts

Yes most have no idea just how much wood an OWB will go through. Now factor in standby losses from the shell as these all sit outside exposed to whatever the weather is & the typical <30% can quickly become <20%. Makes one wonder what is really going through the minds of folks who get upset at OWB's having a bad rep. They earned it. Yep there oughta be a law indeed.[/quot

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Yes I have read the posts about LP prices, they went up fast. Kind of a double edged sword, when the price of a product is low millions of barrels of it's production gets set aside as distillate for the bitumen in the pipelines. Which always seems to lead to a shortage of said product & a rise in prices.

 

[bhanks55]

Always rubbed me too when I lived down south. The gas (believe natural gas) wells were forced to burn off x amount because of gov regs not allowing them to take but so much. Couldn't cap apparently and had to burn of not piping or storing it I was told repeatedly by the people working those fields.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Yes same here wells flaring 24/7/365. I swear if I hear about a NG shortage I may just crawl right out of my skin. Billions of btu's/hr to warm the atmosphere….for what?

 

[coyote556]

bhanks, which hardy dealer are you dealing with. I have been looking around for different dealers in central missouri so I can look at all different OWB models. I did not know there was a hardy dealer in central MO (not that I really want one after this thread)

 

[bhanks55]

His name is Jason Moore. Lives north if centralia. If interested I can get contact info.

On a side note, I was looking more into a building for this and don't see his I can build one much karger than the unit itself. Here is why. If I have enough room in front to work and pile wood inside I honestly think without a vent hood I would need a gas mask with all the smoke that bellows out the front door. Vent hoods appear to be pretty pricey too. Anybody use one they like that is reasonable in cost?

 

[bhanks55]

Well,
We just got a heat exchange test today. I imagine that is a significant part of the problem as anticipated. 91% per hour.....

 

[leon]

So it sounds as if you are not interested in a coal stoker for much less money and work?

 

[bhanks55]

Don't know much about them. You have info to share?

 

[leon]

Coal stokers use anthracite coal(hard coal) to heat with forced air, hot water or steam
which is the most efficient method for heating using low pressure steam single or two
pipe radiators(single pipe radiators being the preferred method with less plumbing
required and they use thermostat/regulator attached to each radiator.


Stoker coal sizes

1. rice,
2. pea
3. buckwheat


Most coal stokers are CSA, UL, ASTM certified or can be certified to the ASTM standard
which is the highest testing standard in the United States for steam heating and the
ASTM rating garantees your insurer will except it as long as a certified licensed plumber
does the installation.

Stokers types are classified as either:

1. underfed/screw fed

2. walking grate

3. pusher plate with an overfed combustion grate

4. coal gun


The underfed screw fed/burn pot "retort" stokers use an auger that does three jobs

1. meters the amount of coal fed to the burn pot/retort

2. has a gear powered coal feeding auger drive that is either belt driven or powered
through a reduction gearbox

3. the underfed coal stokers have a gear driven auger that feed the coal to the burn pot/retort
with an auger and tube assembly.

a. underfed coal stokers have an adjustable air shutter that regulates the combustion air volume
entering the burn pot/retort.

The coal stokers using the overfed coal pusher plate type combustion coal grates have combustion air that is forced up through the coal bed and the burnt coal falls off the end of the grate assembly(wood pellet burners use the same method).

There are two manufacturers of walking grate coal stokers for residential/ commercial use.

The walking grate coal stokers use pea or buckwheat sized anthracite coal.

The walking grate stokers uses either a belt drive or direct drive single speed combustion fan with.


One manufacturer uses an auger fed system that feeds the coal to the walking grate as required by the aqaustats calling for heat

The other manufacturer uses a gravity fed storage hopper that is either fed manually with a pail of coal or by an auger from a bin with a coal level sensor switch in the hopper.

The walking grate is pulled back and forth with a gear driven arm that pushes and pulls the grate which in turn meters
the coal in the coal inlet tube to the fire which is burning on the walking grate and the coal continues to burn under a
forced draft until the coal is burned to a fine ash and falls off the end of the walking grate to the collection basket.



There is more to them but I do not want to wear out my welcome on the forum.

If you visit the NEPA digital coal burning forum you will find awealth of information
about coal stokers.

 

[bhanks55]

Yes most have no idea just how much wood an OWB will go through. Now factor in standby losses from the shell as these all sit outside exposed to whatever the weather is & the typical <30% can quickly become <20%. Makes one wonder what is really going through the minds of folks who get upset at OWB's having a bad rep. They earned it. Yep there oughta be a law indeed.

Well, I was able to do calculations based off my usage of propane on cold days (for MO). This slightly overestimated for a year's usage, but definitely shows a huge difference. Trying to justify with my wife a new gasser. Also, assumes BUYING wood. Which honestly I only have time to cut like 4-6 cords a year MAX, so I figure I will have to work in the estimate of a furnace two full years of wood (one already seasoned,to get ahead so to speak). At a rate of expected cost of 20K it is hard to "sell" an 8-10 year payback when our funds are low. I guess I will keep scrounging to save up so one day, so to speak.

On a positive note, I tore a TON of drywallout of the attic and found some kneewalls that allow pretty good access. It was APPAULING the lack of insulation. The foam guys are gonna foam ALL my accesses, the entire crawl space, and the basement Wednesday. Has to make a difference, just nobody knows how much yet. This place is " very drafty" currently with 91% heat exchange per hour. Good part is my county electric company has large rebates going right now that are gonna cut the price almost in HALF. So, it was a nobrainer this was the place to start.

 

[leon]

AAAAYYY Caramba Lucy,
I realise we burn here but
your house is as leaky as
mine is


Even with Eastern anthracite coal being $13.00 a (100 lbs.)
picked up in bags you will spend less money than burning wood.

you can certainly afford a coal stoker like an Alternate Heating Systems S130
AB Vanwert 90, Keystoker KA6, Axeman Anderson 130-M.

Adding a domestic loop will save you even more money versus propane OR wood