New York State DEC Announces Proposed OWB Rule and Hearing Dates

[SolarAndWood]

I don't have a problem with what I assume is the spirit of the rule; one person's burning shouldn't impact another person's quality of life. A few of the details concern me.

First and foremost, it prevents me from buying the new Econoburn because of the setbacks.

If, and I realize it is currently only an if, they were to apply this to indoor installations, it would prevent me from buying many clean burning units that don't successfully do the certification dance with NY. And, I wouldn't be able to install any unit in my house because of the setback requirements.

The last thing that bothers me is the property rights issue. Who gave the state the right to tell me that I can no longer use my property that was in compliance when I bought it? While I agree with the fuel and plume provisions, giving the state the power to set blanket arbitrary dates on equipment is ridiculous. It ranks right up there with the towns having the authority to regulate the size and aesthetic qualities of my wood pile.

Am I right in assuming in its current form this has no bearing on the boiler I plan to install in my house? Anyone know of anything in the pipeline behind it?

 

[Frozen Canuck]

As I have been told, they have what amounts to “boiler police” over there. Every other year you have to have your boiler tested for efficiency and emissions. If it doesn’t pass inspection you get a period of time to get it cleaned up, repaired or replaced. The “boiler police” return after the allotted time and check it again (all of which you pay for) and if it is not within spec, they take your boiler. No if, no and, no but, they just take you boiler. Doesn’t matter if it’s the middle of January or not, they just take your boiler.

I'd just like to do some fact checking before I accept this statement at face value. What is the source of your information? Perhaps you can provide a web link or some other reference? It's not out of the realm of believability, but then again, that's how a lot of statements get accepted as general truths when in fact there is no truth behind them.

Tracked it down for you, sorry it took so long but silly season for me is beginning to get into full swing (Housing Contractor).

Anyhow here it is, go to Dan's site heatinghelp.com>click the hot tech tips tab>scroll down to the article the enormous scope of European hydronics>the info you are seeking is in the last half of that article.

Happy reading & yes the German's as well as other European nations take burning clean (no matter what fuel is used) very seriously indeed. Hope this helps.

 

[heaterman]

As I have been told, they have what amounts to “boiler police” over there. Every other year you have to have your boiler tested for efficiency and emissions. If it doesn’t pass inspection you get a period of time to get it cleaned up, repaired or replaced. The “boiler police” return after the allotted time and check it again (all of which you pay for) and if it is not within spec, they take your boiler. No if, no and, no but, they just take you boiler. Doesn’t matter if it’s the middle of January or not, they just take your boiler.

I'd just like to do some fact checking before I accept this statement at face value. What is the source of your information? Perhaps you can provide a web link or some other reference? It's not out of the realm of believability, but then again, that's how a lot of statements get accepted as general truths when in fact there is no truth behind them.

I haven't taken the time to research German laws on that stuff personally but Dan Holohan told me that himself at a "Wetstock" gathering out east a few years ago. Lou Voorsteveld, who was head of US operations for Buderus at the time, told me the same thing. I have no reason to doubt either man. Dan travels extensively in Europe and has many contacts there at all the major manufacturers and Lou is from there. Neirther would have anything to gain from making stuff like that up. I take it as a fact.

They have a little different idea of personal freedom over there......it's called socialism.
If you don't like that direction I would humbly suggest that you make your feelings known at the ballot box this fall.

 

[Como]

Europe is many countries, each has their own regulations.

I doubt if the Russians care what you burn or what the emissions are.

The German/Austrian manufacturers etc manufacture to the highest common standards.

Not much point making a dirty version just for sale in the US and Russia.

 

[ken999]

I don't have a problem with what I assume is the spirit of the rule; one person's burning shouldn't impact another person's quality of life. A few of the details concern me.

First and foremost, it prevents me from buying the new Econoburn because of the setbacks.

If, and I realize it is currently only an if, they were to apply this to indoor installations, it would prevent me from buying many clean burning units that don't successfully do the certification dance with NY. And, I wouldn't be able to install any unit in my house because of the setback requirements.

The last thing that bothers me is the property rights issue. Who gave the state the right to tell me that I can no longer use my property that was in compliance when I bought it? While I agree with the fuel and plume provisions, giving the state the power to set blanket arbitrary dates on equipment is ridiculous. It ranks right up there with the towns having the authority to regulate the size and aesthetic qualities of my wood pile.

Am I right in assuming in its current form this has no bearing on the boiler I plan to install in my house? Anyone know of anything in the pipeline behind it?

The interesting thing I'm hearing (not sure if it is true yet....) is the DEC has no legal right to enforce any set-backs. That is up to the local code enforcement officers. It seems odd to me that they can write the law but can do nothing to enforce it, but thats what I've been told so far.

I'm not sure where that leaves you with regards to what boilers you can install though. It would seem rather foolish if you couldn't install a Econoburn downstairs but you are free to install a wood burning fireplace insert or freestanding stove upstairs wouldn't it?

 

[webbie]

I have to laugh when folks equate being able to pollute the air and stink out their neighbors as "freedom" or "capitalism".

It seems some are still stuck back in the 50's or 60's.

The world has gotten smaller - we've been able to see that pollution generated here....ends up over there (wherever)....

We have seen population explode - and biomass is responsible for a vast percentage of the pollution in the air world wide.

On the other hand, we have created decent technology in order to burn cleaner and to get the most heat out of our limited resources.

Sure, there are always problems with transitions, but in the end it is beholden on us to use the best available technology with whatever fuel we burn for heat.

 

[heaterman]

The interesting thing I’m hearing (not sure if it is true yet….) is the DEC has no legal right to enforce any set-backs. That is up to the local code enforcement officers. It seems odd to me that they can write the law but can do nothing to enforce it, but thats what I’ve been told so far.

It's called an unfunded mandate. It passes all the costs and headaches of enforcement down to the local guys who take all the grief. A favorite tactic of state government here in Michigan and I'm sure elsewhere also.

 

[heaterman]

I have to laugh when folks equate being able to pollute the air and stink out their neighbors as "freedom" or "capitalism".

It seems some are still stuck back in the 50's or 60's.

The world has gotten smaller - we've been able to see that pollution generated here....ends up over there (wherever)....

We have seen population explode - and biomass is responsible for a vast percentage of the pollution in the air world wide.

On the other hand, we have created decent technology in order to burn cleaner and to get the most heat out of our limited resources.

Sure, there are always problems with transitions, but in the end it is beholden on us to use the best available technology with whatever fuel we burn for heat.

Preach it brother Craig

 

[SolarAndWood]

Am I right in assuming in its current form this has no bearing on the boiler I plan to install in my house? Anyone know of anything in the pipeline behind it?

The interesting thing I'm hearing (not sure if it is true yet....) is the DEC has no legal right to enforce any set-backs. That is up to the local code enforcement officers. It seems odd to me that they can write the law but can do nothing to enforce it, but thats what I've been told so far.

I'm not sure where that leaves you with regards to what boilers you can install though. It would seem rather foolish if you couldn't install a Econoburn downstairs but you are free to install a wood burning fireplace insert or freestanding stove upstairs wouldn't it?

That is my guess. But, for example, is a Garn barn built against the side of the house an indoor or outdoor and residential or commercial boiler install? Or, does a roof that attaches a shed with an Atmos in it make it part of the house or an outbuilding?

As far as enforcement goes, I imagine this will just give local law and code enforcement a new tool to deal with sloppy burners that get blown in by their neighbors and prevent poor installs going forward.

 

[shagy]

They have a little different idea of personal freedom over there......it's called socialism.
If you don't like that direction I would humbly suggest that you make your feelings known at the ballot box this fall.[/quote]


Heaterman you must have been a carpenter in your past life.... you keep hitting the nail on the head

 

[heaterman]

Am I right in assuming in its current form this has no bearing on the boiler I plan to install in my house? Anyone know of anything in the pipeline behind it?

The interesting thing I'm hearing (not sure if it is true yet....) is the DEC has no legal right to enforce any set-backs. That is up to the local code enforcement officers. It seems odd to me that they can write the law but can do nothing to enforce it, but thats what I've been told so far.

I'm not sure where that leaves you with regards to what boilers you can install though. It would seem rather foolish if you couldn't install a Econoburn downstairs but you are free to install a wood burning fireplace insert or freestanding stove upstairs wouldn't it?

That is my guess. But, for example, is a Garn barn built against the side of the house an indoor or outdoor and residential or commercial boiler install? Or, does a roof that attaches a shed with an Atmos in it make it part of the house or an outbuilding?

As far as enforcement goes, I imagine this will just give local law and code enforcement a new tool to deal with sloppy burners that get blown in by their neighbors and prevent poor installs going forward.

RE: code officials. It may give them a new tool but it will also give them fits as they are the ones who are going to actually hash out what this all means. Oh how nice it would be if the regulatory powers just clearly said, "If you have a unit that burns to a certain standard for emissions and efficiency you can put it in anywhere."

The solution is clean burning appliances and people that know how to use them, not setbacks or tall stacks.

 

[yanksforever]

It all comes down to one simple thing...if your outside boiler is smoking and stinking up your neighbors house and yard...
then fix that problem! And burn seasoned wood..not wet wood and garbage! It's your responsibility to be a good neighbor! If they walked their dog over to your beautiful manicured lawn and let their big dog crap all over it...you wouldn't like it either! Just do the responsible thing. All this petty bickering of liberal or
conservative is a problem from watching too much Fox News Network or listening to that blow hard drug addict Rush Limbaugh....remember something
about Fox News...The More you watch...the LESS you know! And yes...there are a FEW liberal stations that are ridiculous too. It's not about politics...it's about
doing the right thing...then the state government doesn't need to step in!

 

[EricV]

Being a Conservative has nothing to do with Fox News or Rush. Neither of which can I stomach.

Pretty short sighted thinking that people who don't think we need tax breaks to do the right thing as you yourself boast (and very correctly I might add) must be related to Fox and Rush. Sad...

 

[yanksforever]

Never said anything about tax breaks. I don't like more taxes anymore than anybody else. The sad fact is...we can't function without them. I was speaking about owners of outside furnaces that stink up the whole neighborhood and then belly ache about regulation by the state when they were the ones that caused it by not giving a crap about their neighbors living condition and the labeling it a liberal move.

 

[EricV]

I didn't mean to tie you to the tax break issue, my apologies for not being clearer on that. That was a reference to a few posts back. I just wanted to be clear not all conservatives are Rush or Fox followers. Like Jerry Springer said about his show, Rush is "for entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriuosly".

But your right, these guys stink up the area and then cry foul when the govt has to step in. I'd prefer the gov't never had to step in but in times like this they need to.