New User need Stove Advice

[elkimmeg]

Here is a Video of the plant tour where the Harman oakwood is cast and enamaled

(broken link removed to http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3397773981046662187)

 

[Gooserider]

One note on Harman - it is probably less of an issue with a wood stove than with other products, but note the many threads here where people have had difficulties with Harman - they do ALL their support through the dealer, and many Harman dealers will ONLY support the stuff that their shop personally has sold - IOW if your dealer goes away, or you move, you may be SOL if you need service...

Other outfits may also want you to go through the dealer as primary contact, but will give some backup if you can't. Harman is notorious for refusing all service to non-dealers, and does not encourage dealers to support stuff other than what they themselves have sold...

Gooserider

 

[alfio]

One note on Harman - it is probably less of an issue with a wood stove than with other products, but note the many threads here where people have had difficulties with Harman - they do ALL their support through the dealer, and many Harman dealers will ONLY support the stuff that their shop personally has sold - IOW if your dealer goes away, or you move, you may be SOL if you need service...

Other outfits may also want you to go through the dealer as primary contact, but will give some backup if you can't. Harman is notorious for refusing all service to non-dealers, and does not encourage dealers to support stuff other than what they themselves have sold...

Gooserider

I disagree with that, i had a problem with my p61 and i called anther dealer and they came with no questions asked .

 

[alfio]

The Encore everburn stove,the Harman oak wood, and Lopi Leyden, all share the same back secondary combustion technology as the Everburn
Harman call its version the Fire dome

I checked on the petend, and i fund that harman's fire dome is totally different discing then the everburn from vc .

 

[Corie]

Can you do me a favor and link me to both of the patents please. I've never been about to find any patent hits for either one of them.

 

[elkimmeg]

Edited per Craig's suggestion

 

[alfio]

Corie Leave Alfio alone he is talking out his rear end and has no clue Lopi Harman and Vc do not own the pattern the licence the technology. I too would like to see the patern he found that would be interesting.

Alfio you are so far out your league here. VC in Vermont Cast the Harman Oakwood and do the enamaling Thats right VC manufactures the Oakwood using the same materials same workers same mold and pouring machines Do you think VC makes the harman parts any better they they cast their own.

Alfio you know that harman pellet stove you own gues who holds tha pattern right to the bottom feed VC does that pellet stove uses Vermont Casting Technology Since you are so good at finding patent then it will be real easy to confirn VC has the Harman bottom feed system

First of all harman dose not offer enameling on there stoves . second here is the patent# 5413089 filing date may 4 1993 , issue date may 1995.

 

[titan]

I've seen a white Harman Oakwood on a brochure someplace; I'd assume that wasn't whitewash?

 

[alfio]

I've seen a white Harman Oakwood on a brochure someplace; I'd assume that wasn't whitewash?

no that's high heat paint . go on there web site and you see all the different colors they offer .

 

[alfio]

Corie Leave Alfio alone he is talking out his rear end and has no clue Lopi Harman and Vc do not own the pattern the licence the technology. I too would like to see the patern he found that would be interesting.

Alfio you are so far out your league here. VC in Vermont Cast the Harman Oakwood and do the enamaling Thats right VC manufactures the Oakwood using the same materials same workers same mold and pouring machines Do you think VC makes the harman parts any better they they cast their own.

Alfio you know that harman pellet stove you own gues who holds tha pattern right to the bottom feed VC does that pellet stove uses Vermont Casting Technology Since you are so good at finding patent then it will be real easy to confirn VC has the Harman bottom feed system

ELK sorry to burst your bubble , but here are the patent's you are referring to . harman bottom feed burn pot , patent# 5018455, filing date june, 15,1990. VC's pellet stove patent # oops i forgot to writ it down . any way here is the filing date, april 1991 issue date aug. 1992 has you can see harman was first and it's totally different dicing ! so much for being out of my league .

 

[Corie]

alfio, without looking I think you're citing the Harman patent on the technology that was used for the Harman CW30, not the current firedome. Of course that's me guessing. I'll read up on what you've posted later.

 

[alfio]

alfio, without looking I think you're citing the Harman patent on the technology that was used for the Harman CW30, not the current firedome. Of course that's me guessing. I'll read up on what you've posted later.

you may be right , that stove is a coal and wood stove . The point is that harman had and has afterburner patent's, not what Elk is suggesting that harman is using VC technology . First of all they would have to pay for the rights to use vc tech. and maybe even disclose that fact.

 

[GVA]

Alfio who are you Really???????

 

[elkimmeg]

Edited per Craig's suggestion

 

[Corie]

I'll take a wild guess that the third party is probably Ferguson & Andors.

 

[Hogwildz]

I don't know if anyone asked the original poster this but: is the second story open? Meaning is it a cathedral ceiling from first floor to second?
If so, I suggest one or a couple good, multi-speed ceiling fans. Or else all your heat will rise mostly to second floor depending on the ceiling height. Works well for me.
Good luck.

 

[alfio]

Neither harman or Vc own that technology they both have licenced it from a third party and 1995 parerns have nothing to do with the 2005 harman oakwood.

Harman has subcontracted all enamaling process done at Vermont castings whether it be for pelet stoves or wood burners all enamaling is done at VC Contractually they had an agreement 5.6 years ago. As for the bottom feed patterns the Head of Engineering told Goose and I this during the plant tour Which VC licences to Harman . Harman aslo entered into agreement With VC to provide their castings.

I have seen their molds at the plant. Unless you can provide substantiated information, I stand pat to what I have seen and been told By VC. Goose was a standing beside me when VC informed us they hold the bottom feed paterns that Harman uses.

elk , harman those not offer enameling , when will get it.

 

[alfio]

Alfio who are you Really???????

just a stove affectionato, I just love stoves !

 

[alfio]

I'll take a wild guess that the third party is probably Ferguson & Andors.

you forgot Dane P. Harman

 

[Corie]

Dane Harman would be the primary owner of the patent. Ferguson & Andors develop stove technology for outside companies and charge a fee for their services. They then patent the idea but give the original company ownership of the patent, generally. They are two of the best hearth engineers in the industry for certain and offer a service that almost no one else provides. They also both happen to be pretty nice guys and certainly ooze intelligence. You almost can't absorb it all when you're speaking to them.

 

[alfio]

Dane Harman would be the primary owner of the patent. Ferguson & Andors develop stove technology for outside companies and charge a fee for their services. They then patent the idea but give the original company ownership of the patent, generally. They are two of the best hearth engineers in the industry for certain and offer a service that almost no one else provides. They also both happen to be pretty nice guys and certainly ooze intelligence. You almost can't absorb it all when you're speaking to them.

good inf. tanks. But , Dane is listed has one of the inventors on that patent

 

[Corie]

Yeah, I've noticed that as well. Oh well, that was just my take on things, certainly it may not be correct. Craig knows them quite a bit better than I do, so he may be able to give the straight poop on it better than myself.

 

[webbie]

I see the two Harman patents, once for their bottom feed pusher block deal (pellet/coal/corn) feed, which is what their stoves use.

Then I see the one with Ferguson, Andors.

Neither shows VC involved.

When it comes to patents, the actual inventors MUST be named, even if someone else pays for it. Example: Harman pays an engineer to help him design and perfect a stove with his ideas....but engineer comes up with some improvements that are in the patented material. So ALL the inventors are named even though Harman gets to make the $$$ off of it - and, or license it at his discretion.

When these threads become pissing matches between Elks daddy (VC) and someone else's daddy, they really degrade quickly into a "he said, she said" - after all, Elk is telling us what a VC engineer who is probably relatively new at the company says, and this is third or fourth hand speculation at the best! I would suggest only repeating what we know for a REAL fact.

Let me repeat this for the 10th time - downdraft combustion systems have been around for HUNDREDS of years, all with the same idea of dragging the smoke back down through the coal bed. Even Franklins original stove was somewhat similar, in that the smoke
Note this:
"In Franklin's original design the opening to the flue (behind the baffles) was in the floor of the stove, requiring the hot exhaust gases to flow downward(!) before going up the chimney."

There have been almost unlimited improvement on this design over the CENTURIES, but it is just plain silly to call the newest marketing schemes innovation.

Here is one from 1976 with slanted grates and downdraft, etc.
4194487

All tarm (natural draft) wood boilers for many decades have used a sloping grate and a downdraft design.
Riteway used this design all through the 70's.

I can show you numerous other examples from the 1979 woodburners directory...etc.

Let's try to just suggest various stoves instead of bashing one and putting others on a pedestal. Sales pitches are best left to dealers and marketing materials.

BTW, a patent covering a downdraft design, etc. does not mean that the patent holder has the rights to a downdraft design.....it means they have the right to the improvement in the design that they patented only! In other words, we could apply for a patent for such an improvement as "a cheaper way to fabricate a stove with a downdraft design" or "light weight stove with downdraft design" and on and on.

Things we hear from other people....are called rumor and speculation. When we use these to back up our own opinions about things, especially when we may have a financial or other interest in those things....well, that is just too obvious.

 

[Gooserider]

I am NOT going to get into pissing contests about who owns what, or who has better technology, etc. But I will back Elk in saying that we were told on the VC tour that they make some of the cast iron parts for other stove companies, Harman among them.

There was also discussion about pellet stoves where we were told that VC wanted nothing to do with them as their opinion was that they were nothing but warrantee hassles waiting to happen, however they DID make parts for other companies pellet stoves, using designs that VC had developed. We also saw stoves sitting on the VC warehouse floor that had other company names on them....

(Secret personal opinion - I think the real reason for the pissing contest - Elk is just jealous because there is someone else on the board that types worse than he does... %-P :lol: )

Gooserider

 

[webbie]

Goose, I think you have it backwards about pellet stoves and VC.

VC only ever had one pellet stove - and it was designed and built in an "above board" partnership with Harman! It used Harmans patented mechanism and Harman controls, etc. etc.... In fact, I was at the party when they introduced the partnership and the Prez of VC brought Dane onstage and sung his praises.

So as fas as technology transfer, it was from Harman to VC.

On the subject of parts, VC will make parts for you or me if we want them to - or mens room hair dryers or frying pans. They do make a lot of Harmans cast parts and from the looks of things they may provide Harman with the castings from the old VC Pellet stove - the Harman Accentra freestander looks very close to the Reliance (VC pellet)...maybe these are the castings the gentleman was mentioning.

Anyway, my concern is that a thread like this starts with a person looking for some wood stove advice and then turns into the sword fight of who sell who some raw castings. An end user has little use for all this trivia, and in addition to the trivia there is outright speculation about who owns what technology, etc. etc. etc - all this does NO good to a buyer. Heck we won't know for 5 years anyway how good ANY brand new stove is - Let alone the financial viability of all the current players, many of whom are struggling because of last years slow season.

On a related matter, I spoke to a long time industry rep at the chimney show yesterday, and he bent my ear telling me how ALL the large corporate stove makers of today have become like most other corporations - pared down to the bone and getting rid of all the older talent. He lamented on how they all have taken a lot of quality OUT of the products, while also treating their employees like "you know what". In short, Chain Saw Al has gotten a hold of the stove biz too. His summary "Craig, NOT wanting to deal with these types of companies is the reason we got into the business in the first place 30 years ago".

Things have changed. However, there are still a number of quality companies that have not fired their entire staffs and replaced them. Companies like Harman still say "Built to a standard, not a price". The PE users here are in love - and of course, woodstock is the original cult stove!

I hope the industry continues to see innovation from individuals and not be totally sucked into the corporate void.

An interesting story in that regard. At the National Trade Show 2 years ago, one of the large public companies won an award for a certain newly invented stove. At the ceremony, they called their engineering team to the stage...and it was crowded! The same company, which may be the largest in the industry, actually pulled 100% out of the same trade show this year - a real first in the industry and a move that could put a hurting on the trade groups revenue. It's a small example of why it would be nice to have diversity of companies in our industry. In a similar industry - the Hardware Industry - what used to be a good national trade show turned into a trade show given for the benefit of just a few customers....Home Depot, Ace, Etc. - very few little guys on the buyingr or the selling end...either you can sell to HD or you are washed up.