New stove, smoking wall problems

[Smolder]

Aren't you required to have clearance around the outside of the masonry structure in Canada as well. I thought it was actually a little larger than our requirements as well.

Here insulation is required unless you have the required clearance from the masonry structure to combustibles (1" for an external chimney and 2") for an internal one. The existence and condition of a clay liner doesn't enter into it.

I wouldn’t doubt that, the clearances seem stricture on all measures. The inspector didn’t seem concerned with mine, round clay liner mortared into a solid masonry wall (triple brick house, chimney bumped to the inside by a brick and a half), nothing combustible for a long way in either direction, just solid brick. The air gap is about half an inch between the clay and the liner. (Sorry for the hijack, just not certain insulation is always needed, but I could be mistaken)

 

[bholler]

I wouldn’t doubt that, the clearances seem stricture on all measures. The inspector didn’t seem concerned with mine, round clay liner mortared into a solid masonry wall (triple brick house, chimney bumped to the inside by a brick and a half), nothing combustible for a long way in either direction, just solid brick. The air gap is about half an inch between the clay and the liner. (Sorry for the hijack, just not certain insulation is always needed, but I could be mistaken)

But solid masonry conducts heat really well. If you actually had an air gap around that clay the whole way that would help. But you don't I am sure there are lots of places were there is mortar bridging that gap. Typically in brick structures the floor joist sit in pockets in atleast one course of the wall. How close are the ends of those floor joists to the chimney wall? The fact is there are just to many unknowns to be able to say you have proper clearances in an existing structure. Which is why I insulate every liner I install. It makes the install safer and perform better for not that much additional cost.

 

[bholler]

In general inspectors here don't seem to know or care either. But it is code and it is there for very good reasons

 

[Smolder]

But solid masonry conducts heat really well. If you actually had an air gap around that clay the whole way that would help. But you don't I am sure there are lots of places were there is mortar bridging that gap. Typically in brick structures the floor joist sit in pockets in atleast one course of the wall. How close are the ends of those floor joists to the chimney wall? The fact is there are just to many unknowns to be able to say you have proper clearances in an existing structure. Which is why I insulate every liner I install. It makes the install safer and perform better for not that much additional cost.

Its around a foot each way to the joist pocket from the flue... wide spacing on these joists and a little wider at the chimney (each side). The flue certainly touches in many places, it runs up 35’, about 30’ in the wall. I’ve been checking with the heat gun and the wall is about 2c in the chimney than the adjacent wall. I do wish they had lined it, but they didn’t think there was enough clearance and they didn’t seem to worried. That all said, it drafts very well.

 

[bholler]

Its around a foot each way to the joist pocket from the flue... wide spacing on these joists and a little wider at the chimney (each side). The flue certainly touches in many places, it runs up 35’, about 30’ in the wall. I’ve been checking with the heat gun and the wall is about 2c in the chimney than the adjacent wall. I do wish they had lined it, but they didn’t think there was enough clearance and they didn’t seem to worried. That all said, it drafts very well.

If you have that much masonry in between you are probably pretty safe. But atleast here it still wouldn't meet code without a gap there

 

[kennyp2339]

By any chance, what did the smoke smell like? peanuts / chemical or wood burning smoke?

 

[jmdavis984]

By any chance, what did the smoke smell like? peanuts / chemical or wood burning smoke?

The smell was more chemical than nice wood smoke, for sure. It didn't smell like peanuts though.

 

[jatoxico]

Just another thought. When I first installed my insert I had "smoke" coming out of the brick and mortar joints along the length of my external chimney. Scared me badly and I was up in the attic and everywhere else trying to figure out the problem. Long story short it dissipated after a bit and I came to believe that the higher temps attained with a lined chimney caused moisture in the brick and mortar to steam. Using the fireplace never got the temp in the chimney high enough to drive off the water and being sealed top and bottom the only path for it to escape was through the joints.

 

[kennyp2339]

The smell was more chemical than nice wood smoke, for sure. It didn't smell like peanuts though.

On a hunch.. you burning off the packing oil on the liner and stove, plus the crap sealant that was put on the stove collar, you got fine white smoke coming off the stove which hugged the wall making it seemed it was coming from the wall, perhaps your problem isn’t that bad

 

[jmdavis984]

Well, I installed a 1/2" liner insulation kit, and got the same result. At this point I'm wondering if it is just moisture in the brick cooking off. The smoke started as soon as things got HOT. But I didn't snuff the fire right away this time, and after 15 minutes it seems to be slowing significantly. I'll let it burn down, then light it again after it's good and cold and see what happens.

 

[maple1]

There is quite a difference between moisture and smoke. That should be discernible.

 

[jmdavis984]

There is quite a difference between moisture and smoke. That should be discernible.

I do think it is smoke, because it doesn't dissipate as quickly as water vapor would. My bricks do have some spalting, so I do know there is moisture getting in them.

 

[Mech e]

Seems to me if it was smoke (especially wood smoke) you would also smell it.

 

[bholler]

Well, I installed a 1/2" liner insulation kit, and got the same result. At this point I'm wondering if it is just moisture in the brick cooking off. The smoke started as soon as things got HOT. But I didn't snuff the fire right away this time, and after 15 minutes it seems to be slowing significantly. I'll let it burn down, then light it again after it's good and cold and see what happens.

You NEED to stop burning in this setup untill it is checked out by a pro. What you are describing could have some very scary causes

 

[begreen]

Is this a new stove? If so it could be the paint baking in, especially if it goes away completely after a hot burn with the stovetop at 600º.

 

[kennyp2339]

I was going with stove paint / liner coating being baked off to, I remember at my parents place when they had a new insert installed into the existing fireplace when we fired it some smoke was coming out the heatilator vents in the brick work, but it distinctly smelled like paint chemical with an almost peanut smell from the coating that's sprayed on the liner for storage.

 

[jmdavis984]

Just another thought. When I first installed my insert I had "smoke" coming out of the brick and mortar joints along the length of my external chimney. Scared me badly and I was up in the attic and everywhere else trying to figure out the problem. Long story short it dissipated after a bit and I came to believe that the higher temps attained with a lined chimney caused moisture in the brick and mortar to steam. Using the fireplace never got the temp in the chimney high enough to drive off the water and being sealed top and bottom the only path for it to escape was through the joints.

On a hunch.. you burning off the packing oil on the liner and stove, plus the crap sealant that was put on the stove collar, you got fine white smoke coming off the stove which hugged the wall making it seemed it was coming from the wall, perhaps your problem isn’t that bad

Seems to me if it was smoke (especially wood smoke) you would also smell it.

Is this a new stove? If so it could be the paint baking in, especially if it goes away completely after a hot burn with the stovetop at 600º.

I was going with stove paint / liner coating being baked off to, I remember at my parents place when they had a new insert installed into the existing fireplace when we fired it some smoke was coming out the heatilator vents in the brick work, but it distinctly smelled like paint chemical with an almost peanut smell from the coating that's sprayed on the liner for storage.

I had the vapors for about 15 minutes, then after that I burned for another 3 hours and had no evidence of vapors. It was definitely NOT wood smoke, nor a burning creosote smell. It was for sure a chemical-ish smell. I had the stove good and hot, with nice secondary burns. The top of the door was 350-400F, and the glass was up to 650F. I'll burn it one more time in the hope that it was just cooking in the finish and burning off the packing oils and such. If I get the vapors again, I'll shut it down and call in the professionals.

 

[Rickb]

New stoves give off a chemical smelling smoke. You will also smell that chemical smell a bit each time the stove reaches a new high temp. It saved me a few times when I forgot about it after a cold start.

 

[begreen]

The top of the door was 350-400F, and the glass was up to 650F. I'll burn it one more time in the hope that it was just cooking in the finish and burning off the packing oils and such. If I get the vapors again, I'll shut it down and call in the professionals.

This is starting to sound more like normal paint baking. Take it up to 5-600º over the door with the next fire. That should complete the paint break in. Note that readings off of the glass are somewhat meaningless.

 

[jmdavis984]

Burn #3 today had a lot less vapor, but it is still there. I am definitely more annoyed at it now than alarmed. The front of the stove has been cruising at a measured 530, measured right above the door. I'm pretty happy with it other than the smell. I'm currently heating the entirety of my 2200 sq ft tri-level without heating myself out of the room with the stove.

 

[begreen]

It's not pleasant, but it goes away after a few hot burns. FWIW, there must be thousands of threads here that mention baking in the paint on a steel stove and the associated smells.

 

[jmdavis984]

I think the official word is that the stove and bricks were outgassing. I burned overnight and now after letting things cool and re-heat there is no vapor and almost no smell. Whew. What a dramatic start to the use of a new stove! Now I get to figure out how to burn the thing. How many splits, what air setting, do I turn it up when adding wood, what blower speed, how hot is too hot, how cold is too cold. I'll figure out as soon as the weather turns warm, I'm sure.