New stove, smoking wall problems

[jmdavis984]

I just installed a Pacific Energy Summit insert into my old fireplace. It replaced a 70's Craft stove that left lots of buildup and eventually ended in a chimney fire. After the fire I had the 12" clay flue cleaned and inspected. It had some glaze on it, but was in good order. I installed the stove myself, but followed the recommendations I found here. I installed a block-off plate and insulated at the top and bottom with Roxul. I did NOT insluate the flex liner, because none of the local installers recommended it. I burned it the other day to bake on the finish, but didn't get it terribly hot. Besides finding out I have a learning curve on how to run this new-fangled stove, it burned fine.

Today was my first hot burn, and as soon as it got up to a good temperature I ended up with smoke coming out of the joints between the brick fireplace and the drywall. I even had smoke coming out of an outlet (because of the design of my basement, but still dramatic). Naturally I immediately snuffed the fire and took the fuel out. The wall stopped smoking pretty quickly.

Besides the dramatic effect of having smoke pouring out of the walls, I need to figure out where it's coming from and what's causing it. Could it be from the remaining creosote in the clay flue heating up because of the un-insulated flex liner and having nowhere to escape? There was no smoke coming from around the stove surround, or at least not as much as if the liner had come apart from the stove. I did order a liner insulation kit and hope that it solves my issue, but I would love to hear any other suggestions or ideas. As it stands now, I already have to completely dis-assemble and re-install, so I can take pics along the way to see if there are any other discoveries.

 

[bholler]

I just installed a Pacific Energy Summit insert into my old fireplace. It replaced a 70's Craft stove that left lots of buildup and eventually ended in a chimney fire. After the fire I had the 12" clay flue cleaned and inspected. It had some glaze on it, but was in good order. I installed the stove myself, but followed the recommendations I found here. I installed a block-off plate and insulated at the top and bottom with Roxul. I did NOT insluate the flex liner, because none of the local installers recommended it. I burned it the other day to bake on the finish, but didn't get it terribly hot. Besides finding out I have a learning curve on how to run this new-fangled stove, it burned fine.

Today was my first hot burn, and as soon as it got up to a good temperature I ended up with smoke coming out of the joints between the brick fireplace and the drywall. I even had smoke coming out of an outlet (because of the design of my basement, but still dramatic). Naturally I immediately snuffed the fire and took the fuel out. The wall stopped smoking pretty quickly.

Besides the dramatic effect of having smoke pouring out of the walls, I need to figure out where it's coming from and what's causing it. Could it be from the remaining creosote in the clay flue heating up because of the un-insulated flex liner and having nowhere to escape? There was no smoke coming from around the stove surround, or at least not as much as if the liner had come apart from the stove. I did order a liner insulation kit and hope that it solves my issue, but I would love to hear any other suggestions or ideas. As it stands now, I already have to completely dis-assemble and re-install, so I can take pics along the way to see if there are any other discoveries.

Something is very very wrong if you are getting smoke coming out of the walls. What ever is going on it is extremely dangerous and you should not do anything more with the stove at all untill you have a full inspection done.

 

[begreen]

Agreed. Something is dangerously wrong. The liner should have been insulated, but only after the chimney was totally cleaned. If creosote build up was left where it could come in contact with a hot, uninsulated, this could be a life-threatening situation. There is no way we can determine this, but an inspection of the chimney and smokeshelf area is a place to start. Once the problem has been located, the liner can be reinstalled - after it is insulated.

Who installed the liner? Did they use the proper connector to the insert? Did they terminate the liner above the chimney cap with no splices?

 

[webby3650]

Why would all the installers recommend against insulation? That’s crazy! How did you deal with the glazed creosote before installing the liner?

 

[jmdavis984]

I installed the liner. I did use an appliance adapter to connect the liner to the stove, and sealed it to the stove collar and to the liner with 2000* stove sealer. The liner ran all the way through the top plate as a single piece.

The installers around me said it was an expensive installation addition and they didn't do it to pass the savings on to the customer. Most also insisted a block-off plate wasn't necessary. The Pacific Energy installation instructions specifically recommend a block-off plate, so I put one in.

I didn't do anything with the glazed creosote before installation. I was assured by 3 local installers that it wouldn't be an issue. I'm guessing that's where I went wrong, and I'm hoping liner insulation will address the issue of heating the creosote.

Are there DIY glaze removers available? All my reading says it is a very expensive proposition to have a chimney cleaning company do it.

 

[bholler]

I installed the liner. I did use an appliance adapter to connect the liner to the stove, and sealed it to the stove collar and to the liner with 2000* stove sealer. The liner ran all the way through the top plate as a single piece.

The installers around me said it was an expensive installation addition and they didn't do it to pass the savings on to the customer. Most also insisted a block-off plate wasn't necessary. The Pacific Energy installation instructions specifically recommend a block-off plate, so I put one in.

I didn't do anything with the glazed creosote before installation. I was assured by 3 local installers that it wouldn't be an issue. I'm guessing that's where I went wrong, and I'm hoping liner insulation will address the issue of heating the creosote.

Are there DIY glaze removers available? All my reading says it is a very expensive proposition to have a chimney cleaning company do it.

What I don't get is how the smoke from the glazed creosote would get into the wall. It would really scare me if it was my house.

And what ever installers gave you advice are completely clueless. It is really scary that that they do it professionally with so little understanding of the dangers involved.

 

[bholler]

I installed the liner. I did use an appliance adapter to connect the liner to the stove, and sealed it to the stove collar and to the liner with 2000* stove sealer. The liner ran all the way through the top plate as a single piece.

The installers around me said it was an expensive installation addition and they didn't do it to pass the savings on to the customer. Most also insisted a block-off plate wasn't necessary. The Pacific Energy installation instructions specifically recommend a block-off plate, so I put one in.

I didn't do anything with the glazed creosote before installation. I was assured by 3 local installers that it wouldn't be an issue. I'm guessing that's where I went wrong, and I'm hoping liner insulation will address the issue of heating the creosote.

Are there DIY glaze removers available? All my reading says it is a very expensive proposition to have a chimney cleaning company do it.

Cleaning the glaze will depend allot on how bad it is. I would start with a rotary chain cleaner. If that doesn't work it's time for chemical treatment which does get pretty expensive. But it needs to be cleaned

 

[jmdavis984]

What I don't get is how the smoke from the glazed creosote would get into the wall. It would really scare me if it was my house.

And what ever installers gave you advice are completely clueless. It is really scary that that they do it professionally with so little understanding of the dangers involved.

That's why I installed on my own. I didn't trust the local installers to do it right. I guess it bit me.

I did have the chimney camera inspected, but because of the glaze it was difficult to say if any of the mortar joints in the existing clay flue were damaged or cracked. I'm guessing there is a crack that allows the smoke to get into my walls somehow, but I'm not paying to have a new clay liner put in. If I can't get this stove to work on a budget, it isn't worth the effort. I'll just put in a more efficient furnace and sell the 10+ yrs of firewood I have on my property.

 

[maple1]

Whoever inspected your chimney - don't ever go near them again. They obviously missed a serious defect, as in order for smoke to get to your walls let alone through them there is plainly a breach in your chimney.

 

[begreen]

Some installers say to skip the insulation in order to keep their bids competitive, but it's against code and with creosote remaining in the chimney it is really bad advice.

One possible source of the smoke might be the stuff put on the stove collar and adapter. That normally is not necessary. Was it put on very heavily?

 

[bholler]

That's why I installed on my own. I didn't trust the local installers to do it right. I guess it bit me.

I did have the chimney camera inspected, but because of the glaze it was difficult to say if any of the mortar joints in the existing clay flue were damaged or cracked. I'm guessing there is a crack that allows the smoke to get into my walls somehow, but I'm not paying to have a new clay liner put in. If I can't get this stove to work on a budget, it isn't worth the effort. I'll just put in a more efficient furnace and sell the 10+ yrs of firewood I have on my property.

Just a crack in the clay shouldn't let it into the walls. that would just let it outside the clay not outside the masonry structure.

You don't need the clay at all. Infact many times with bad glaze we break out the clay instead of using chemicals because it is cheaper.

 

[bholler]

Whoever inspected your chimney - don't ever go near them again. They obviously missed a serious defect, as in order for smoke to get to your walls let alone through them there is plainly a breach in your chimney.

If it is covered in glazed creosote even with a camera it would be hard to see much.

 

[jmdavis984]

Some installers say to skip the insulation in order to keep their bids competitive, but it's against code and with creosote remaining in the chimney it is really bad advice.

One possible source of the smoke might be the stuff put on the stove collar and adapter. That normally is not necessary. Was it put on very heavily?

I did use a "healthy" amount of sealant. Is it really not necessary to seal the adapter to the liner? How do you keep the smoke inside the liner? It was a nice fit, but not even close to air tight. I couldn't find anything online that recommended using the caulk, but the installation instructions from Pacific Energy say: "Attach the Flue Collar to the adapter and secure with three Stainless screws. Caulk around connections with high temp stove cement." So that's what I did. I assumed the sealant cured during the burn-in fire that I did.

One thing that changed between my burn #1 and burn #2 is that I added the top plate and cap. They were not in place for burn #1, so the clay liner was able to out-gas to the atmosphere.

 

[bholler]

I did use a "healthy" amount of sealant. Is it really not necessary to seal the adapter to the liner? How do you keep the smoke inside the liner? It was a nice fit, but not even close to air tight. I couldn't find anything online that recommended using the caulk, but the installation instructions from Pacific Energy say: "Attach the Flue Collar to the adapter and secure with three Stainless screws. Caulk around connections with high temp stove cement." So that's what I did. I assumed the sealant cured during the burn-in fire that I did.

One thing that changed between my burn #1 and burn #2 is that I added the top plate and cap. They were not in place for burn #1, so the clay liner was able to out-gas to the atmosphere.

Smoke won't come out of that connection the flue will be under vacum so if anything air will leak in. If you used furnace cement it shouldn't smell though.

 

[begreen]

I did use a "healthy" amount of sealant. Is it really not necessary to seal the adapter to the liner? How do you keep the smoke inside the liner? It was a nice fit, but not even close to air tight. I couldn't find anything online that recommended using the caulk, but the installation instructions from Pacific Energy say: "Attach the Flue Collar to the adapter and secure with three Stainless screws. Caulk around connections with high temp stove cement." So that's what I did. I assumed the sealant cured during the burn-in fire that I did.

One thing that changed between my burn #1 and burn #2 is that I added the top plate and cap. They were not in place for burn #1, so the clay liner was able to out-gas to the atmosphere.

Just speculation jm, you are on the front line with eyes on site. If the gap is small sometimes it is just left that way. If the space is a bit larger, stove gasket can fill the gap.

 

[jmdavis984]

Smoke won't come out of that connection the flue will be under vacum so if anything air will leak in. If you used furnace cement it shouldn't smell though.

I used MEECO'S RED DEVIL Gasket Cement & Stove Sealer I got from my local retailer. It was the only one rated to 2000*, so that's what I went with.

 

[bholler]

I used MEECO'S RED DEVIL Gasket Cement & Stove Sealer I got from my local retailer. It was the only one rated to 2000*, so that's what I went with.

It shouldn't be needed and probably won't hold up all that long. But it isn't causing a problem.

 

[begreen]

You tried to do this correctly and I'm sorry it's started out negative. The Summit is a great insert. Though it is a pita, you could correct the woes or have at least part of the work done affordably. The clay liner can be broken out. Pros have tools to do this. It's not uncommon and shouldn't cost more than about $300 if you pull the liner and clean up the resulting tile pipe. A few folks on here have made their own tile smasher to do this. Then put an insulation blanket on the liner and reinstall. After that things should work better.

Question. How well did the fireplace function prior to the insert installation? Did it draft well with no smoke spillage?

 

[jmdavis984]

You tried to do this correctly and I'm sorry it's started out negative. The Summit is a great insert. Though it is a pita, you could correct the woes or have at least part of the work done affordably. The clay liner can be broken out. Pros have tools to do this. It's not uncommon and shouldn't cost more than about $300 if you pull the liner and clean up the resulting tile pipe. A few folks on here have made their own tile smasher to do this. Then put an insulation blanket on the liner and reinstall. After that things should work better.

Question. How well did the fireplace function prior to the insert installation? Did it draft well with no smoke spillage?

Thanks for the input. Would I be wasting my time if I insulated the liner without addressing the creosote problem? I ask because there is creosote EVERYWHERE in the old firebox, not just in the clay liner.

The slammer install never leaked a bit of smoke into the house. Other than the excessive build-up, it functioned great.

 

[bholler]

Thanks for the input. Would I be wasting my time if I insulated the liner without addressing the creosote problem? I ask because there is creosote EVERYWHERE in the old firebox, not just in the clay liner.

The slammer install never leaked a bit of smoke into the house. Other than the excessive build-up, it functioned great.

If it is all over the firebox and smoke chamber chemical cleaning may be the only option.

 

[begreen]

The slammer install never leaked a bit of smoke into the house. Other than the excessive build-up, it functioned great.

Actually, it functioned poorly and was creating the timebomb that you are now having to deal with. The difference may be that the slammer never had a chimney top cap.

 

[Bad LP]

You all can google Concord MA fire that happened last Friday.
I was having lunch when my former Lt. sent the message.
Today it was announced that the fireplace had a bad liner.
I’m sure they were not burning wood to save $$$

 

[begreen]

Very sad case. It appears that was caused by a breach in the mortar.

Fire officials release cause of Concord mansion fire

The Concord Fire Department and State Fire Marshal have released the cause of the 4-alarm mansion fire in Concord.

www.wwlp.com

 

[Smolder]

Some installers say to skip the insulation in order to keep their bids competitive, but it's against code and with creosote remaining in the chimney it is really bad advice.

One possible source of the smoke might be the stuff put on the stove collar and adapter. That normally is not necessary. Was it put on very heavily?

In Ontario it isn’t code to insulate the liner (but it is code to use one if the clay liner is in question). I haven’t met anyone with an insulated liner and I’m surrounded by people who burn. I’m guessing the airgap between the liner and the a clay flue acts like insulation to a degree.

 

[bholler]

In Ontario it isn’t code to insulate the liner (but it is code to use one if the clay liner is in question). I haven’t met anyone with an insulated liner and I’m surrounded by people who burn. I’m guessing the airgap between the liner and the a clay flue acts like insulation to a degree.

Aren't you required to have clearance around the outside of the masonry structure in Canada as well. I thought it was actually a little larger than our requirements as well.

Here insulation is required unless you have the required clearance from the masonry structure to combustibles (1" for an external chimney and 2") for an internal one. The existence and condition of a clay liner doesn't enter into it.