New EPA regulations.

[HotCoals]

I like your thoughts Branchburner.
I would pay a 10-15% premium for truly seasoned wood.
As it is I buy my wood in the spring and stack it out back where there is already one years worth. I do that every year.
The 3.3 cords that was there then gets moved to the basement in the fall.
Now if i could just buy truly seasoned wood I would just buy in the fall and move it straight into my basement..that would save me some work!

 

[HotCoals]

Another thought that keeps coming to my mind is that if I can find some type of bio-bricks that works well for me i would go that route.
I heat now for-around 700 a season with wood which is way better then like 2k with the heat pump and the e furnace!
But I would still be ahead with even a grand or so spent on some type of bio brick.
I want to try those Idaho Logs but I don't think they are sold around here.

 

[DanCorcoran]

5) add a $200 rebate to every new stove purchase to be applied toward a woodshed with a minimum 2 cord capacity.

Oh goodie, a playhouse for the kids! Unless someone goes around to check that the woodshed is actually being used as a woodshed, that is. (I like the idea of financial incentives, but they can be difficult to structure so that they encourage compliance, without an army of inspectors.)

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Possibly they will subject your stove to an emissions test,just like they do with your car.

 

[begreen]

Oh goodie, a playhouse for the kids! Unless someone goes around to check that the woodshed is actually being used as a woodshed, that is. (I like the idea of financial incentives, but they can be difficult to structure so that they encourage compliance, without an army of inspectors.)

True, there is also a chance that the EPA stove credit goes toward a storage cabinet, smoker or planter if the person decides they don't like heating with wood. The point is this would be a sea change with the government telling the public that dry wood is essential to clean burning.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Now I'm confused. My flue temp drops from 500 to 250, when I engage my cat. So, bypass = pre-EPA = more heat up the flue. Secondary active = cat cruising @ 1000F = less heat up the flue.

that's weird, when I was burning a cat unit , my flue temp 18 inches above the stove literally mirrored the cat temp right on top of the cat (condar probe in both locations) I literally never saw a drop in stack temp when I engaged the cat. might be a difference in stove design though in my stove the cat was in the upper chamber of the unit and just under the blower manifold (and it just screamed out heat when I turned on the blower) flue temps hardly wavered when I kicked on the blower as well (was internal pipe manifold not a blow across the top)

 

[stoveguy2esw]

ok lemme put my "mythbusters' hat on here;

older non epa stoves with no active reburn systems cannot be made to burn as clean in the criteria which is being regulated here by EPA. no matter how hot you run it, its still going to produce a massive amount more particulate matter out the flue. remember ash itself is measured in the filters when the test is being run. this is why certified pellet stoves have a much lower air budget than the old 35-1 AFR units had. the reason is particulates are not just unburned stuff, it can and is in some cases burned inert ash. so" too much draft" will pull this ash out of the "dragons" at a much higher pace than it will an EPA stove will. and this adds to the PM. this is one of the hardest parts in designing a stove to meet the newest standards, you have to have enough air to burn the stuff , but you have to be restrictive enough at the same time to prevent ash escape due to too much velocity through the stove.

its exceedingly hard to balance this and still make the stove usable for the public. trust me, I been doing this for a long time and have been actively studying it for almost that long ( about googled it to death) this is where the battle will be for the development of these new stoves. achieving the required balance at a lower velocity so the stack pressure wont pull the ash out with the exhaust.

ive been thinking about multi-chambered designs similar to a hybrid I guess but without a actual cat. primary chamber with tubes a secondary 'gasser" chamber and a trap. haven't been able to make it work on paper yet much less come up with a prototype, but im grinding on it.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Check out gasifiers. That is where the rocket stoves are heading. In fact, the new rockets aren't traditional rockets. They have taken on all of the characteristics of wood gasifiers. In the majority of cases, the only difference is the "rocket" has a feed tube.

they have to go gasser, for the same reason I described above , rockets get as complete a combustion ratio as anything does but particulates are often made up of inert ash.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Good post.

Thing is they are using kiln dried wood to get the numbers which most of us don't. gotta love politics..lol.

But you're right money is a huge motivator!
I would not have bought the stove I have now if it was not for the tax credit that the feds gave. And that would have been a shame but my old smoke dragon BKK was still going.
I did scrap it though but didn't have too.

the reason for the "kiln dried' is so there is a "control' in the test (which is really a basic scientific experiment where you need a control for comparative results) without using this wood , which is always douglas fir, there would not be an accurate system to determine how efficient a stove can burn.

now, I should note that a stove loaded with 20lbs of dried doug fir will not give the same readings as a charge of say 30lbs of red oak at varied moisture levels , so the test performance is representative of the ability of the stove compared to other units, so a stove which "tested" at 3.1GPH wont do that in the real world as "john q" aint burning high grade kiln dried doug fir, but a stove of that size that tested out at 1.3GPH will burn cleaner on average but the percentage of how much cleaner will vary from load to load as the fuel is no longer a "control"

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Many locales are doing just what you say - getting rid of the old stoves. Orgs like HPBA and Forgreenheat are constantly lobbying for such programs (change outs, etc.), but doing it on the Federal Level is going to be quite impossible since Congress is do-nothing and, even if they did something, many there believe that coal/oil/gas (fossil fuels) are King and renewables should not get much Gubment $$$....
Hopefully the states and regional air districts will pick up the slack. The cost would be very low in comparison to the benefits.

catch more flies with honey my friend, this is one of those times where you and I agree in a way. and I think HPBA and my new friend John and his gang at forgreenheat are doing a great job.

also, I agree that regulation in the form of cutting pollution is important (even though in a way it threatens my job a bit) part of the problem is the old fishers, (and our old Englander dragons)and others were built like battleships, they last and last.

what I would like to see is a federal law prohibiting the sale of these old units for anything other than scrap, make it illegal to sell privately and add a tax deduction to remove one (all you would need is a receipt from the scrapyard. or a dealer if you traded up let the dealer scrap it and pocket the cash in return you get a few bucks off your "trade in" make it illegal to sell a house with one installed as well. homeowner could then scrap it , get the tax write-off and add value to his home he's selling with a new unit or leave the flue open for the new owner to decide what to install there.

there are many creative ways to influence homeowners to move to cleaner burning appliances, above all though its going to take education. this is another way Uncle Sam can get involved along with the private sector. seminars and such offered by industry members coupled with science in the public arenas. imagine how many folks who strolled in that tent in DC saw what was in there and said to themselves "wow, I wonder if one of those would reduce how much wood I have to cut to heat my house?" or "I wonder how much I could save on my oil bill if I bought one of these?"

this is where john's bunch and the HPBA could really make some hay, especially if the hearth industry helped out by supplying someone who could explain how this will save both money and the environment. booths at state fairs and such I remember when that's where woodstoves were advertised to start with. The hearth industry would benefit from it due to increased sales and those with the old stuff would be encouraged to upgrade.

 

[branchburner]

... achieving the required balance at a lower velocity so the stack pressure wont pull the ash out with the exhaust.

ive been thinking about multi-chambered designs similar to a hybrid I guess but without a actual cat. primary chamber with tubes a secondary 'gasser" chamber and a trap.

So what's you're take on the current downdrafts like Harman and Lopi Leyden? They seem to trap some ash -- in the combustion package, lol!

You seem resistant to the cat, but isn't that always going to be the best way to keep more heat in the stove and house, by burning smoke at a lower temp with therefore less draft needed/created? Meaning also less ash pushed out?

 

[begreen]

Cats are good solutions, but they could do better. The problem with a cat is that it only meets stringent spec when new. Then it is in steady decline until replaced. I was most intrigued by the Mulciber team's non-cat approach.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

You seem resistant to the cat, but isn't that always going to be the best way to keep more heat in the stove and house, by burning smoke at a lower temp with therefore less draft needed/created? Meaning also less ash pushed out?

personally I love cat stoves, professionally less so. cat stoves are very restrictive to draft by nature, now when they are mated with a good flue system and the operator knows what he /she is doing, its as good as it gets. combustion wise.

downside is , first they need a strong flue system , marginal flues cause more hatred of the cat stove than anything on the planet. non cats are more forgiving. Personally if I were putting a woodstove back in my house (wife wont let me I have pushed her to "the dark side" now she's pure pellethead) it would be a cat stove if possible (even though we make a few screaming non-cats) but I know what im doing and I know my flue will pull anything I hook to it ive hooked it to a manometer just to see and its way stronger than the dilution tunnel we have in our lab ( interior flue 2 ft off peak 3 ft above 6 inch liner SS with a perlite pour its strong enough to extinguish a kitchen match 4 inches outside the thimble when its not connected)

I (we) have to create an appliance which can perform in less than optimal conditions in order to be successful ( lest we no longer get to provide any product) until folks eventually learn more about the ins and outs of successful responsible woodburning, non-cats are more forgiving though aren't as clean in a lot of cases though they are far better even in a marginal situation than a dragon will ever be as far as emissions are concerned

heres the dilemma, not everyone has "the perfect flue" much of this is in education, old urban legends like "bigger is better" large flues create part of the problem as they do not hold enough heat for modern stoves at reduced temps, but with a dragon they breathe hard and fast creating the ash carry issue even more than if the unit was connected to a smaller flue.

green wood burns hotter and longer, also a myth, this comes from the practice of throwing green splits on in the evening to maintain an overnight burn.
what happens is the wood sits on the coals of the former fire and is "baked dry" once it dries out it starts to burn but usually that's halfway through the night , so when the person checks the fire in the morning they find coals and the house aint cold so they assume its a good thing. what they don't see is the crap they let into their flue and out the top if they are lucky

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Cats are good solutions, but they could do better. The problem with a cat is that it only meets stringent spec when new. Then it is in steady decline until replaced. I was most intrigued by the Mulciber team's non-cat approach.

true , non-cats tend to be more consistent over the long haul, though one would hope the steel cats would retain their "new" performance spec's longer than the traditional impregnated ceramic ones do.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

So what's you're take on the current downdrafts like Harman and Lopi Leyden? They seem to trap some ash -- in the combustion package, lol!

haven't spent much time looking at individual models or manufacturers , im more attuned to theory than methods in specific models. truth is though, if combustion is happening particularly in a woodstove , unless the solids which are part of the primary fire's exhaust stream are segregated (gasser) you will have ash like that , regardless of what you do.

even cats get plugged with ash as they are used especially in marginal draft situations or as they degrade or is their own air supply is compromised and they cannot completely incinerate the fuel

 

[begreen]

Steel cats appear to need more maintenance. According to Joful I think, the mesh is finer and more apt to plug.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Steel cats appear to need more maintenance. According to Joful I think, the mesh is finer and more apt to plug.

since we got out of cat stoves before the steel cat really became more than a curiosity I didn't really look at them all that hard. is there a screen in the inlet to the cat? I wonder if that's what has to hit temp to "glow" and provide the initial heat to start combustion as the fuel enters the cells?

 

[branchburner]

personally I love cat stoves, professionally less so.

Understood. Most consumers are just looking for a box they can put wood in and get warm, for cheap... the idea of maintenance and removing/cleaning parts is not so appealing. It already seems a big enough challenge getting them to understand and correctly use non-cats, let alone cats!

I think part of this is a generational thing that will pass with time... you have a lot of guys in their 40s through 80s that grew up with pre-EPA stoves and have no concept that EPA stoves are NOT just metal boxes. The idea of "burning smoke" is entirely new to them, but over a few decades the mentality will shift.

 

[begreen]

since we got out of cat stoves before the steel cat really became more than a curiosity I didn't really look at them all that hard. is there a screen in the inlet to the cat? I wonder if that's what has to hit temp to "glow" and provide the initial heat to start combustion as the fuel enters the cells?

I don't think there is a prescreen on the Jotul, just cells, but haven't burned one and could be wrong. Here's the original thread:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/steelcat-vs-ceramic-my-verdict.122935/#post-1648031

 

[stoveguy2esw]

you have a lot of guys in their 40s through 80s that grew up with pre-EPA stoves and have no concept that EPA stoves are NOT just metal boxes. The idea of "burning smoke" is entirely new to them, but over a few decades the mentality will shift.

welcome to my world! if I had a nickel for every guy (and in some cases gal) who gave me the "son ive been burning wood since before you were an itch in your daddy's pants" i'd be on a beach drinking daiquiris by now.

education is the whole thing, one thing ive learned is the older folks get the more set in their ways they are (because they have made things work in the manner they are used to for so long) heck, im as open minded as they come but some things I just "don't wanna hear it" being open minded eventually I'll come around , a lot of folks though , just wont. these are the folks ironically, who are most in need of the newer tech though, maybe retired, on fixed income, older so they have to buy wood, and so on. I can (we can, the industry) provide them heat at a much lower cost in time, energy and money if they have to buy wood to feed a dragon. hardest part is first convincing them to try, then weaning them off the old habits which simply do not work with modern appliances.

 

[Ashful]

I don't think there is a prescreen on the Jotul, just cells, but haven't burned one and could be wrong. Here's the original thread:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/steelcat-vs-ceramic-my-verdict.122935/#post-1648031

The Jotul F12 uses an interesting design, in that exhaust gas must flow from ports in the back of the firewall down into a chamber, where gas velocity will be near-zero. In this chamber, the exhaust gas is mixed with fresh pre-heated air, and then drawn up thru the cat, suspended above the chamber. Due to the low gas velocity created by this chamber, any ash coming out of the firebox falls to the floor the chamber. I never see any ash on my cat, but do find a light coating of ash on the floor the chamber, whenever I open it up for service.

... and yes, the steelcat does have much smaller capillaries than a ceramic cat. From the Condar website:

Q.Why are the SteelCat cells smaller than the ceramic honeycomb cells?
A. Because the steel cell walls can be thinner than ceramic walls, your performance is better, by exposing more catalyst to smoke coming up your chimney. And your stove naturally gets better air flow.

 

[Charles1981]

Possibly they will subject your stove to an emissions test,just like they do with your car.

no emissions testing of cars in Michigan some real hooptie rides around here.

 

[jharkin]

You seem resistant to the cat, but isn't that always going to be the best way to keep more heat in the stove and house, by burning smoke at a lower temp with therefore less draft needed/created? Meaning also less ash pushed out?

Im not so sure that hte cat is always burning cooler than a tube stove?? Sure it will "ignite" at much lower temps of 400-600F give or take, but once its ignited hte heat from the burn easily drives temperatures inside the catalytic chamber to the levels that flue gasses would reburn spontaneously. Mine typically cruises with temperatures in the 1200F to 1400F range in there, and on a big dry load it can drive up to 1700F or hotter if you are not careful.

I think of it more like a chemical wood reactor than a wood stove It is an interesting beast.


Maybe Mike can educate us on this one - what are the typical combustion temeratures around the tubes on a 30 for example when its really cranking?

 

[jharkin]

Steel cats appear to need more maintenance. According to Joful I think, the mesh is finer and more apt to plug.

He is not the only one, I had lots of problems with 2 steelcats in a row and finally gave up on them. No plugging for me but I would have stalls (sometimes hours into a burn) and lots of smoke at temperatures where it should have been happily eating all the smoke. Todd reported he went back to ceramic as well, as did a bunch of people in this years Vermont Casting discussion thread.... And lets not forget the "Calling in the warranty on the woodstock steelcat" thread a couple years ago...

 

[jharkin]

... and yes, the steelcat does have much smaller capillaries than a ceramic cat. From the Condar website:

To illustrate, these are the 2 cats side by side for my VC Encore. The steel in this photo is used, about 1 cord through it - currently on its way back to Condar for analysis. Ceramic brand new.