New demand for very old farm tractors specifically because they're low tech

[Medic21]

The Unimog folks like me are limited to 25 year old Mercedes stock, no computers. There were a few rare newer ones that came in legally with computer emissions and they are/were reportedly problematical. The bummer is port injection is a real nice way of bumping horsepower and torque but in order to justify the costly addition of the equipment tighter emissions go along for the ride. More than a few folks have been caught reprograming the systems to defeat the emissions and boost the HP. The guys on the Diesel Brothers cable show got tagged for that at some point.

Farmers are not totally blameless for this situation, they are a major emissions source and EPA has deemed they need to be controlled but reportedly many farmers were defeating the DEF systems and particulate traps to save fuel , DEF and particulate filters. Unlike cars there are no good ways to assure that offroad equipment gets routinely tested. On road vehicles can be tested as a condition of annual inspection or just randomly at truck safety checkpoints.

One of the big engine firms, Cummins? tried to work around DEF and ended up almost going bankrupt as the engines barely ran and could barely meet emissions.

Cummins has a non DEF engine for on road in Europe doing very well. What the have done very well is the Ecofit system in the states. No more hp robbing egr valve and that increases fuel economy by 20% and HP by 12%. Europe is on stage V for emissions while we are at stage IV. There are no plans for stage 5 here, yet. Cummins does better than any other manufacturer in the US.

I been researching motorhomes and they have the same problems. I guess Cat had so many problems with their motors they quit making everything but off road motors which don't have to meet the smog bs.

CAT decided to save their credits, manufactured had so many available before becoming compliant, for off road development. They quit making the on road version which was always a step ahead of off road so they could prolong the introduction of emissions in their main market, off road.

 

[ABMax24]

Another interesting article. Trends going on are affecting how we live and work, creeping in without us being fully aware.

Sorry, Right to Repair Advocates: You may be right, but John Deere is on the Winning Side of History — Janzen Schroeder Ag Law

My response to the Motherboard Right to Repair article: Why American Farmers are Hacking Their Tractors with Ukrainian Firmware.

www.aglaw.us

"Tesla, as Elon Musk has proclaimed, is more a software device than a hardware device. A Tesla is a "computer on wheels."

My crystal ball shows that John Deere is moving in that direction too. While Right to Repair advocates have a point today, history is on John Deere's side. Some day farmers will not care as much about buying a new John Deere model as they will about the release of the next John Deere operating system."

I think this is an unfair comparison. Compared to a diesel engine the drive train on a Tesla car is extremely simple, quite frankly not much different than a cordless drill, a battery, throttle, motor controller, and motor.

Musk is referring more to the automation and self-driving capabilities of the car more than the mechanics. Which technology is absolutely outstanding by the way, the automation processors in the Tesla cars make the electronics on diesel engines look like a Casio Calculator.

 

[SpaceBus]

Yet.
When these new engines and machines go down it’s not like the old days of fuel, air and electric.

As a mechanic I promise you computer controls make things easier.

 

[SpaceBus]

So you have the factory software to work on it?

Not yet, but I do plan on buying a multi manufacturer scan tool. Anyone who does their own work should. I was looking at them a few years ago but other priorities come first. If I were feeding my family with a tractor you better believe I'd have one now.

 

[SpaceBus]

I think this is an unfair comparison. Compared to a diesel engine the drive train on a Tesla car is extremely simple, quite frankly not much different than a cordless drill, a battery, throttle, motor controller, and motor.

Musk is referring more to the automation and self-driving capabilities of the car more than the mechanics. Which technology is absolutely outstanding by the way, the automation processors in the Tesla cars make the electronics on diesel engines look like a Casio Calculator.

Also Musk is about to be in the middle of a huge legal battle regarding private marchanics and owners working on cars. Tesla is currently withholding the proprietary diag equipment, but they can only hold out for so long. I think there are several attorneys in New England working on a suit.

Edit: I'm also pretty sure large argi machines have self driving tech to make fields perfectly straight, using less fuel, etc.

 

[Medic21]

Edit: I'm also pretty sure large argi machines have self driving tech to make fields perfectly straight, using less fuel, etc.

that can be retrofit to the older iron now. Not too expensive.

I was an Ag mechanic. It is impossible to touch almost anything with Case New Holland without a computer and the software. Red and Blue are made in the same assembly line but the soft ware is not interchangeable between the two.

As far as your scan tool. They are useless as anything other than a code reader, even data can be corrupted and you can’t trust it. If you want to work on them outside a dealership buy the actual software. I have Cummins, CAT, and Maxxforce with the full International software. All together it costs about 3k a year and I have programming rights. Cummins is different though, you have to go to their school if you want programming rights.

 

[Sawset]

I was an Ag mechanic

So from a first hand perspective, what are the ramifications of all this. A lot of small time operators rely on simpler eq. to make costs. At what hp do these restraints apply. Or is it a matter of options at purchase time. I can see larger operations calling in mechanics as a matter of course, but at some level or point in time, all mechanicals are handled at home. Where is the future.

 

[ABMax24]

Edit: I'm also pretty sure large argi machines have self driving tech to make fields perfectly straight, using less fuel, etc.

That technology has been used by most farmers around here for the last 15 years, when they seed the fields the rows are dead straight across a quarter section, same thing when they harvest. But there is a lot of incentive to make small percentage gains in efficiency, to be economical up here farms have to be at least 1500 acres, but there are a few in the area over 20,000 acres. That's a lot of extra profit if you can use a few percent less seed or fuel.

 

[Stelcom66]

Boy I can identify in my own way. Often its the useless gadgets in cars that fail. Its a pet peeve of mine.

That's why I hope to hang onto my 1999 Honda Accord, 5 speed manual. A simple car by today's standards. Also my 2002 Chevy truck is before the AFM - Active Fuel Management which can be troublesome.

The thing that gets vehicles of this vintage in these parts is rust. Had the fuel and brake lines replaced on the Honda and part of a brake line
on the truck.

 

[Sawset]

Self driving machines here are as simple as a control box, and a servo with a rubber wheel turning the manual steering wheel. Tip of the iceberg.

 

[Medic21]

Self driving machines here are as simple as a control box, and a servo with a rubber wheel turning the manual steering wheel. Tip of the iceberg.

That is EZ Steer, it will not give you sub inch accuracy of RTK and has a lot of limitations.

The whole package together is about cost savings. If you can cut out a bag of corn seed from each field. Cut out the overspray from overlapping. Keep your tillage work efficient you stop overlapping. Variable rate your fertilizer instead of putting on the highest rate needed on a small percentage of the field. Data acquisition. These are just a few things. It goes way beyond making a straight corn row. Whatever costs can be saved is profit, input costs are astronomical for farmers today compared to 20 years ago.

 

[Medic21]

So from a first hand perspective, what are the ramifications of all this. A lot of small time operators rely on simpler eq. to make costs. At what hp do these restraints apply. Or is it a matter of options at purchase time. I can see larger operations calling in mechanics as a matter of course, but at some level or point in time, all mechanicals are handled at home. Where is the future.

What has changed is used equipment is now starting to filter down to small farmers. They do not want it and in reality their 250 acre operation will not benefit from it as a 2500 acre operation will. Top that off with added equipment and maintenance costs and it becomes a burden to the small farmer. Large operations will demand this and more technology as we move forward and the small family farm will cease to exist as it becomes more of liability than a profit.

The easiest way to explain it is $2.50 a bushel corn doesn’t cover input costs and small farmers have to find ways to survive without the subsidies of large farmers. Older equipment without repair costs for labor are one of the easiest ways to do that.

 

[SpaceBus]

What has changed is used equipment is now starting to filter down to small farmers. They do not want it and in reality their 250 acre operation will not benefit from it as a 2500 acre operation will. Top that off with added equipment and maintenance costs and it becomes a burden to the small farmer. Large operations will demand this and more technology as we move forward and the small family farm will cease to exist as it becomes more of liability than a profit.

The easiest way to explain it is $2.50 a bushel corn doesn’t cover input costs and small farmers have to find ways to survive without the subsidies of large farmers. Older equipment without repair costs for labor are one of the easiest ways to do that.

Perhaps CUTs will see this expensive technology with prohibitively expensive software, but it will all be pirated by then. Chrysler tried to lock out ECUs in 2011, but it was only a matter of time. You need thousands of dollars of equipment at the dealership, but not as a landowner or small farmer. By the time these super expensive computer controlled harvesting machines etc hit the used market in mass there will be a large aftermarket to support this. It's not just in America this is happening, the third world is getting computer controlled tractors and they cannot afford expensive dealer fees.

 

[salecker]

As a mechanic I promise you computer controls make things easier.

as a mechanic with zero computer skills i will strongly disagree.Give me anything mechanical i will /can take it apart and put it back together and it will run.Electronic is just a waste of my time.

 

[ABMax24]

as a mechanic with zero computer skills i will strongly disagree.Give me anything mechanical i will /can take it apart and put it back together and it will run.Electronic is just a waste of my time.

This isn't an uncommon problem. More and more tradespeople are having to learn to use computers on a daily basis to complete their jobs.

I'm a pipefitter by trade and measuring pipe is typically done by a skilled journeyman, lately the journeymen is being replaced by a 3D scanner that is capable of measuring millions of points in a 10 minute scan and then the drawings are done digitally in a 3D model on a computer. It puts workers without computer knowledge (particularly older workers) at a severe disadvantage in the workforce.

 

[Medic21]

Notice the computer...

Repairing engines, most of the work that is done with driveline and suspension is easy but and bolt work.

Drivability and any electronics and a computer with proper software is required. Even something as simple as a fuel injector replaces requires the calibration code to be programmed into the PCM. The older equipment, while it does have computers and some electronics on it is still simple to work on. The new common rail fuel systems are a whole new breed. The emission systems are not serviceable without it.

It is all very simple and easy to work on with the right tools but, it’s impossible without the correct tools. That lab top has IDS for Ford, Cummins, CAT, and International on it. My other one has Bobcat, Case, New Holland software. I would have John Deere but they won’t sell it. The software itself is cheap or even free. The subscription is what costs.

 

[TBR]

Cat stopped making engines for the US market, so I've been told. Diesel mechanics hate the new modern diesel engines, but they generally see the worst and only get problems. It's not like well performing engines are showing up for service. My 06 Ram is one of the last trucks to not get emissions equipment, but it is computer controlled. My step father was driving a much newer 6.7 Cummins Ram to haul his 5th wheel for several years without issue. I think once folks figure out they need to buy the computer diagnostic equipment with the new truck/tractor then we will be seeing less folks balk.

Clean air is expensive and we all have to do our part, even if that means learning how to work with diagnostic equipment. In general it is not that hard. The horror stories of dealers spending weeks and thousands of dollars chasing their tails are just bad dealers. I have had several bad dealer experiences without brining in a diesel. This is all blown out of proportion. I spent two years using a 70-ish HP mid sized Ford tractor from the 80's and much prefer my modern Kioti. If an engine or hydraulic issue comes up I can hook in a computer to the CANBUS system and figure out exactly which component is failing. No guessing, no oscilloscope, and no multimeter.

I'm new to this site and also have a Kioti. The model is RX6620. What caught my attention was your comment "If an engine or hydraulic issue comes up I can hook in a computer to the CANBUS system and figure out exactly which component is failing."

I'm a technical guy and my Kioti has not been reliable. Are you using software to connect to your tractor and read/diagnose/program it?

Thank you.

 

[SpaceBus]

I'm new to this site and also have a Kioti. The model is RX6620. What caught my attention was your comment "If an engine or hydraulic issue comes up I can hook in a computer to the CANBUS system and figure out exactly which component is failing."

I'm a technical guy and my Kioti has not been reliable. Are you using software to connect to your tractor and read/diagnose/program it?

Thank you.

I don't personally have the equipment, unfortunately.

 

[sloeffle]

I'm new to this site and also have a Kioti. The model is RX6620. What caught my attention was your comment "If an engine or hydraulic issue comes up I can hook in a computer to the CANBUS system and figure out exactly which component is failing."

I'm a technical guy and my Kioti has not been reliable. Are you using software to connect to your tractor and read/diagnose/program it?

Thank you.

Out of curiosity what kinds of issues have you had ? I always thought Kioti built a good tractor.

 

[Ashful]

Aside from saleker, what class machines are you guys buying that DEF is even a spec on your radar? DEF is not applicable to the class of machine typically purchased for a homestead or any firewood cutter. Last I checked, I believe the cutoff was still 75 hp, with anything below that not requiring DEF. The vast majority of folks buying machines 25 - 60 horsepower are completely exempt from this requirement.

I've owned many old tractors, and now one new John Deere 3033R. Aside from the upfront cost ($45k configured), there is not one single advantage I can attribute to any of my older machines, over the new one. Tier IV dictates a DPF at that horsepower, which is a good thing (I honestly wish my older machines had it), but not DEF. That's for the big boys, only.

 

[peakbagger]

Aside from saleker, what class machines are you guys buying that DEF is even a spec on your radar? DEF is not applicable to the class of machine typically purchased for a homestead or any firewood cutter. Last I checked, I believe the cutoff was still 75 hp, with anything below that not requiring DEF. The vast majority of folks buying machines 25 - 60 horsepower are completely exempt from this requirement.

I've owned many old tractors, and now one new John Deere 3033R. Aside from the upfront cost ($45k configured), there is not one single advantage I can attribute to any of my older machines, over the new one. Tier IV dictates a DPF at that horsepower, which is a good thing (I honestly wish my older machines had it), but not DEF. That's for the big boys, only.

 

[Snagdaddy]

A farmer wanting to escape usury capitalist debt peonage bondage will naturally want to maintain and repair tractors and trucks for decades, and rightly so. Being hated for this behavior, tools farmers depend upon are ruined on purpose under the false flag of environmentalism and free markets.

Fragile, expensive, and fraudulent technologies will increase dependencies and ensure a shorter lifespan for tractors. This is by design to break the farmer's will and bring him into debt bondage.

The solutions are not new. Don't go into debt. Repair the old equipment forever.