New Chimney for New BK Ashford

[bholler]

I understand not wanting to install someone else's junk or off brand pipe. I'd order Duravent, just as they would. I guess I just don't want to do business with companies that try to take advantage of you. I don't understand why 20' of pipe costs $3700 to install when the stove is in place and the parts only cost them $1900. That's one heck of a profit day in and day out.

We're they planning on using duravent? It is only a mid level pipe and if they were proposing a premium pipe that would make a big difference. And $1000 for an interior 2 story install is not to bad if you ask me

 

[Calentarse]

Agreed that the installed labor price is high. They may have a captive market. My main concern would be the competency of their installers and a safe installation. Get several references and check them out.

I hear you there @begreen, unfortunately, Where I live, a lot of people don't heat using wood. Providers are few and far between and those that are in business are super busy. I'm concerned about reputation but don't know where to find reviews. Nothing on google or yelp...

I'm actually considering just getting a contractor with building or HVAC experience. Bad idea?

 

[webby3650]

We're they planning on using duravent? It is only a mid level pipe and if they were proposing a premium pipe that would make a big difference. And $1000 for an interior 2 story install is not to bad if you ask me

If it’s Dura-tech I don’t feel that it’s mid level. I really like the stuff.

 

[webby3650]

I hear you there @begreen, unfortunately, Where I live, a lot of people don't heat using wood. Providers are few and far between and those that are in business are super busy. I'm concerned about reputation but don't know where to find reviews. Nothing on google or yelp...

I'm actually considering just getting a contractor with building or HVAC experience. Bad idea?

The worst installs I’ve seen have been from builders, second would be HVAC.

 

[Calentarse]

We're they planning on using duravent? It is only a mid level pipe and if they were proposing a premium pipe that would make a big difference. And $1000 for an interior 2 story install is not to bad if you ask me

They were proposing Duravent. How long will it take them for the $1000? If they work for five hours, they're making $200 an hour. That's an amazing salary!

 

[bholler]

If it’s Dura-tech I don’t feel that it’s mid level. I really like the stuff.

It is still 400 series liner right?

 

[Ashful]

I understand not wanting to install someone else's junk or off brand pipe. I'd order Duravent, just as they would. I guess I just don't want to do business with companies that try to take advantage of you. I don't understand why 20' of pipe costs $3700 to install when the stove is in place and the parts only cost them $1900. That's one heck of a profit day in and day out.

It’s pretty simple. Around here, skilled labor with tools runs about $500 per man per day. A typical stove with liner or class-A install is two men for one day, so I’d expect my cost to be roughly parts plus $1000. Most contractors around here figure 15% markup on materials, but they’re not paying full retail, so the cost to me is usually close to what I’d pay at retail.

You should know the price of labor where you live, calculate accordingly.

 

[bholler]

They were proposing Duravent. How long will it take them for the $1000? If they work for five hours, they're making $200 an hour. That's an amazing salary!

No first off it will not be one person doing the job so that $200 would be split at least 2 ways. Then you all of the operating expenses. Believe me no one involved in it will be making $200 an hour.

 

[webby3650]

They were proposing Duravent. How long will it take them for the $1000? If they work for five hours, they're making $200 an hour. That's an amazing salary!

Unfortunately for you, this is how business works. There will be 2 guys, so that’s $100 an hour. A 5 hour job kills an 8 hour day after drive time and such. Then pay taxes, insurance and other overhead. After all that, they need to make a profit, not just break even.

A business needs to fill a full day, your 5 hour job pretty much fills their day. So you are hiring them for the day wether you like it or not.

 

[Sodbuster]

Just for the hell of it, I went back and looked at the install for my stove. I had the alcove built, and everything was framed to accept the support box. My dealer used ICC's Excel chimney. They did the complete install, including setting the stove, removing my old ZC chimney, installing new chimney. All Stainless Steel from the support box up.

1 ft length - $67
40"-60" adjustable $142
Support box - $114
Storm collar - $10
18' - class A chimney - $1000
Cap - $86
Total - $1419 - Parts
Labor-$600

Even thought it was back in 2012, I know the guy had to run back to the shop for another 3 or 4' section of class A. I was never charged for that, he honored the quote.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

They were proposing Duravent. How long will it take them for the $1000? If they work for five hours, they're making $200 an hour. That's an amazing salary!

That's not a salary, it's business revenue. Salary is money paid after advertising, insurance, monthly expenses, capital expenses, interest, licensing, taxes, etc.

 

[Highbeam]

Who was being dishonest?

Read the thread. You aren't just here to pick fights with me are you?

Calentarse's dealer said he couldn't supply parts due to "liability". When in reality it is also a large profit item due to the huge markup even though no actual value is added.

 

[Highbeam]

When we bid a job it’s a sealed bid. Most often, we use parts that were not on the parts list the customer was given. We eat those parts, the prices stays the same. You have no idea how often we throw in a set of elbows, or a roof brace kit, and extra piece of pipe if needed. Not to mention all the time helping people with problems or concerns after the sale. The amount of time and money spent is staggering. That’s why our store has been there for nearly 50 years I guess. It’s upsetting when I see people wanting a brick and mortar store with trained, skilled employees with tons of experience to match online prices. Those prices are impossible to match most of the time, if you choose to, you won’t have a store for long... Those same people want to come down to your store for advise, pieces and parts that the online store didn’t make them aware of, and often someone to install it.. These “low” online prices come at a cost to us all. It just takes a while to see it most of the time unfortunately.

Cry me a river.... Instead of "giving" those things away and whining about it, how about you charge for them? If I understand you right, you are losing money on your labor but remaining profitable by marking up parts? That is a business decision but hardly one that the customer can follow or feel good about.

The low online prices are similar to what you are paying right? Quit marking them up and charge a fair price for what you are doing. Charge for the value what YOU add. Part of that should be a profit on your time.

Why is that so hard to understand? Charge a fair price for the value that you add.

 

[Highbeam]

A business needs to fill a full day, your 5 hour job pretty much fills their day. So you are hiring them for the day wether you like it or not.

It's too bad you can't make the guy mow your lawn or something to earn the remainder of his "day"! I do not expect to be charged for 8 hours when the man only took 5 on my site. Those part days and travel time should be part of their labor rate.

It’s pretty simple. Around here, skilled labor with tools runs about $500 per man per day. A typical stove with liner or class-A install is two men for one day, so I’d expect my cost to be roughly parts plus $1000. Most contractors around here figure 15% markup on materials, but they’re not paying full retail, so the cost to me is usually close to what I’d pay at retail.

You should know the price of labor where you live, calculate accordingly.

Sounds good. I doubt @Calentarse was provided with this kind of quote and he/she was smart enough to figure out that the markup on parts was not 15%.

Is there maybe some reason, like taxes, that an installer would want to hide profit in parts markup instead of labor?

In the end, all the homeowner can do it compare total bids. It shouldn't matter much whether the parts markup is 200% and the labor is cheap or the labor is expensive and the parts are at cost. When this can bite the homeowner is when there is an overrun in either parts or labor and the installer chooses to charge for it. Then the unreasonable markup can be the method for the installer to screw the homeowner.

Labor rate is not salary. Most places have around a 3x multiplier.

 

[begreen]

End of rants please or this one will be canned.

 

[bholler]

Read the thread. You aren't just here to pick fights with me are you?

Calentarse's dealer said he couldn't supply parts due to "liability". When in reality it is also a large profit item due to the huge markup even though no actual value is added.

You don't think there is any liability involved when installing products supplied by the customer? What happens in the case of warrantee work? I get compensated for my time by Olympia if I have to do warrantee work on something I bought from them. If I didn't buy it do you think they will compensate me? Yes they may have been being dishonest but you don't know that at all neither do I. We just don't have enough info to say that.

And who is it that is picking fights? What is it you do for a living? You sure like to give us in this field a hard time about making a profit so I am curios if you give your time away.

 

[bholler]

It's too bad you can't make the guy mow your lawn or something to earn the remainder of his "day"! I do not expect to be charged for 8 hours when the man only took 5 on my site. Those part days and travel time should be part of their labor rate.



Sounds good. I doubt @Calentarse was provided with this kind of quote and he/she was smart enough to figure out that the markup on parts was not 15%.

Is there maybe some reason, like taxes, that an installer would want to hide profit in parts markup instead of labor?

In the end, all the homeowner can do it compare total bids. It shouldn't matter much whether the parts markup is 200% and the labor is cheap or the labor is expensive and the parts are at cost. When this can bite the homeowner is when there is an overrun in either parts or labor and the installer chooses to charge for it. Then the unreasonable markup can be the method for the installer to screw the homeowner.

Labor rate is not salary. Most places have around a 3x multiplier.

The part days and drive time are part of the labor rate. We typically don't charge by the hour we charge by the job. And to figure that out we estimate how long it will take. If we can reasonably schedule 2 jobs in a day you don't get charged for the whole day. If we can only get yours done you get charged for the whole day. It is not an hourly rate.

 

[Calentarse]

Well, the business ended up losing the install altogether. I went with someone I already trusted who will get it done alone for $600. The only issue is because he is reasonable, he is busy. Won't be here until December 7! I'll just be happy to have a stove again...

In other news, thank you @begreen for recommending woodstovepro.com. Sean was able to beat the competition and was most helpful!