Need some opinions

[spudman99]

I doubt that BK would be able to help you since it is an operational issue (or so it seems) and they can only answer issues with the mechanical device (Ashford 30 in this case). Yes the thread got a bit de-railed, but hopefully back on track to help you with your problem.

BK's are know for their pretty foolproof operation (or simplicity), but that does come with its complications. I suppose that you do not have a magnehelic that measures your draft, how tall is your liner, insulated or not, exterior chimney or interior? Get some pictures posted of your stack and unit so that the pro's here can help diagnose. Did you actually touch one of the flakes that wafted out of the cap (or could you) to confirm it was creosote?

 

[begreen]

Duke01, can you describe the entire flue setup including any elbows, tees, etc. from stovetop to chimney cap? Is it straight up with double-wall stovepipe or out the wall and up?

 

[Duke01]

 

[Duke01]

So she goes right up inside the house around 20 feet from there. Double walled all the way. I found little pieces of black tissue paper looking stuff on the snow afterwards. I know my wood moister is low but it has me wondering if it needs more seasoning. However, I am questioning everything now. Thanks again guys.

 

[burning VC]

40 years of burning experience here..

Pine is especially 'wet' and gummy, a dirty burn. It DOES have a large BTU rating, but its a moist wood...but burns hot!


I burned EVERYTHING for years because the Pine Borer was making trees drop all over my property, I had a LOT.
And my chimney was needing swept 3 times in a 5-6 month season, using only wood for heat.

Now with hardwood,once or twice a year.

I'm the family wood guy, the Sawmill, the Lumberjack, and the Log Splitter, and the Fire Engineer...
Everyone else gets to enjoy the warmth, and I get to enjoy the work.

We've burned wood to heat our home 95% of all heat....(our electric furnace sounds like a Casino when it runs.....$ $ $ $ $)
for the last 40 years...

A few tips....20% is 'wet' to me....13 % is ok to burn...I'm picky!
The wood if dry enough to burn should sound like two baseball bats when you strike them together...

That is the sound of 'dry' wood....

Burning wet wood massively increases creosote, and wet creosote is much easier to set alight than the 'glaze'....
neither are good types..


If you can't find room to keep 13% or less seasoned wood, find a place nearby the fire, and set a wood bin there..

Use a Ecofan to blow HOT air over the wood, drying the wood and humidifying the air..

You can usually find wood for free, seasoned even, if you make good friends with a tree trimmer...

Mine calls me, they pay him to cut and haul it off...I haul it off, and he doesn't have to.

And there are Creosote reducing chemicals you put on top of a fire to help chemically clean creosote...



Yeah, black tissue paper outside normally indicates a creosote fire...





Oh yeah, put some sheet metal between the stove and that wooden framed wall to the left...

 

[FPX Dude]

Curious, what are you using the start the fire, is it paper or cardboard, or something like that floats up and gets stuck along the way, only to catch and cause the inferno later?

 

[bholler]

So she goes right up inside the house around 20 feet from there. Double walled all the way. I found little pieces of black tissue paper looking stuff on the snow afterwards. I know my wood moister is low but it has me wondering if it needs more seasoning. However, I am questioning everything now. Thanks again guys.

If your wood mc is low it doesn't need seasoned any more.

 

[bholler]

40 years of burning experience here..

Pine is especially 'wet' and gummy, a dirty burn. It DOES have a large BTU rating, but its a moist wood...but burns hot!


I burned EVERYTHING for years because the Pine Borer was making trees drop all over my property, I had a LOT.
And my chimney was needing swept 3 times in a 5-6 month season, using only wood for heat.

Now with hardwood,once or twice a year.

I'm the family wood guy, the Sawmill, the Lumberjack, and the Log Splitter, and the Fire Engineer...
Everyone else gets to enjoy the warmth, and I get to enjoy the work.

We've burned wood to heat our home 95% of all heat....(our electric furnace sounds like a Casino when it runs.....$ $ $ $ $)
for the last 40 years...

A few tips....20% is 'wet' to me....13 % is ok to burn...I'm picky!
The wood if dry enough to burn should sound like two baseball bats when you strike them together...

That is the sound of 'dry' wood....

Burning wet wood massively increases creosote, and wet creosote is much easier to set alight than the 'glaze'....
neither are good types..


If you can't find room to keep 13% or less seasoned wood, find a place nearby the fire, and set a wood bin there..

Use a Ecofan to blow HOT air over the wood, drying the wood and humidifying the air..

You can usually find wood for free, seasoned even, if you make good friends with a tree trimmer...

Mine calls me, they pay him to cut and haul it off...I haul it off, and he doesn't have to.

And there are Creosote reducing chemicals you put on top of a fire to help chemically clean creosote...



Yeah, black tissue paper outside normally indicates a creosote fire...





Oh yeah, put some sheet metal between the stove and that wooden framed wall to the left...

Lots of good info there but also some inaccurate stuff. First there is nothing wrong with pine as long as it's dry.

Recomend moisture content is 15 to 20 so while yes lower than 20 is going to start faster and give you more BTUs in the house 20 works fine. And 13% is next to impossible to get simply by air drying in much of the country.

Determining dryness by the sound is good for seasoned users who know the difference but for a new user a moisture meter is the best option.

He has a cat stove so no chemicals should be used.

His clearance to combustibles looks like it is within spec for that stove to me.

 

[Duke01]

I am using just super dry cedar to start my fires and maybe just one small piece of newspaper. I don't think burning Pine is an issue as long as dry. All the same my next step is to try Ash and see if there is a difference in buildup. One thing I noticed in my Blaze King manual is a reference in trouble shooting to air leaks in chimney connector. I removed only one of three bolts where my connectors attach to the main chimney and it is super sloppy. You can giggle the thing around and the other two screws don't even seem to be really holding much together. Could I be pulling air from the room into the pipe? Is there a way to test this? Just a theory.

 

[bholler]

I am using just super dry cedar to start my fires and maybe just one small piece of newspaper. I don't think burning Pine is an issue as long as dry. All the same my next step is to try Ash and see if there is a difference in buildup. One thing I noticed in my Blaze King manual is a reference in trouble shooting to air leaks in chimney connector. I removed only one of three bolts where my connectors attach to the main chimney and it is super sloppy. You can giggle the thing around and the other two screws don't even seem to be really holding much together. Could I be pulling air from the room into the pipe? Is there a way to test this? Just a theory.

Yes it is possible. An incense stick can help you find air leaks when the stove it burning it should pull smoke into any leaks.

 

[Woody Stover]

Determining dryness by the sound is good for seasoned users who know the difference

For me, that works sometimes, but I've also come across some splits that "ring like a bell" when I knocked them together, but the wood was wet. I don't recall what species those were...that could make a difference I guess.
The driest my outside wood gets here is about 16%, but I guess if it was stacked in a hot barn, it might get drier..

 

[burning VC]

Lots of good info there but also some inaccurate stuff.
First there is nothing wrong with pine as long as it's dry.

And 13% is next to impossible to get simply by air drying in much of the country.

Determining dryness by the sound is good for seasoned users who know the difference but for a new user a moisture meter is the best option.

He has a cat stove so no chemicals should be used.

His clearance to combustibles looks like it is within spec for that stove to me.

I didn't say 'pine is wrong to burn',
I said it's a 'wet' burn... specifically because alot of the BTU's are stored in the
resin(pitch), and not in the fiber of densely packed cellulose fibers.

But I'm not sure my explanations get better, and I don't disagree with your perspective, lots of heat in pine,
but more worry and more work to stay safe, especially to new novices.

Oh yeah, I can tell about the dryness of wood by it's weight to physical size ratio...
and temperature in my hands, relatively to outside temp.
(4 decades of experience, I should mention they started me out age 6 with a 20" round pine block, and a camp hatchet and told me to 'go play' until i 'split all that firewood'.....they knew what they were doin!)

Thanks for the reminder of the Catalyst factor...
I rarely deal with them, mine is a '74/5? Fisher Grandpa Bear(says Dad, I'm thinking it's a '77)..bought new by my Dad, and he says he still has the sales receipt, and the unused 'Bear Claw' feet in a box...(I don't doubt it)




I'm still leery about the wall frame to the left...
I would use a IR scan gun to make sure it did not get too hot on that framing.


Because repeatedly overheating that wall MIGHT cause the studs to warp, deteriorate, or break down structurally, not just combustion risks.


I just checked my area with my IR gun.

Hottest part of stove, 435°F, Avg stove temp, 330°F
Draft almost completely closed, 2" bed of coals, freshly loaded three pieces of wood,
two red oak splits, and a 4.5 inch Beech log.(for the night)
It will EASILY take four times that much wood at once.


Block wall 3 feet away from 'cold side of stove', 105° F.
Hearth 125°F 1 foot above stove/pipe.
Planter with wet soil, 3.5 feet from 'hot' side of stove into open room, 96°F.
Floor 10 inches below bottom of stove, 118°F.
Ceiling above stove, distance 6 feet, 105°F.


I don't know what temp this guy burns at, but an IR gun from Amazon reads up to 1000°C for $16.99.
I would recommend checking the temp of that wall under average duty temp for his burn need.

The IR gun will give a good idea of whether it should be shielded, for the long haul.
I was just suggesting sheet metal, or shielding,
to be on the OVER prudent side.



And again, if i was burning the Fish' Grandpa at Full Stove, with both drafts open for hours,
you wouldn't be able to get anywhere near close to it,
much less stand there are put a hand on the wall.

I've seen it glow red.

And I've seen Chimney Fires that would make a Jet Turbine Test Cell jealous...from burning wet green pine.
Think a 30 foot chimney with a 40 foot tall tongued fantail of flame, shaking the ground roaring...


Pine will burn hot.
..

Both of my less experienced Friends who converted to burning wood, ignored me about burning wet hardwoods, green hardwoods...and BOTH had serious chimney fires within the last three weeks...one had a 3 engine response...yeah, fire engine.


Just trying to help a new guy stay safe, and enjoy a warm cozy peace of mind, and I appreciate you're guidance as I
found my way in here.

BVC

 

[burning VC]

but I've also come across some splits that "ring like a bell" when I knocked them together, but the wood was wet.

Its not about the ringing, it's about the pitch(tone)...dry wood registers with a high pitch, like two ball bats struck together.

It's a high pitched 'clack', opposed to a loud THUnk, bass-y sound, imho.

But yeah, its probably not scientific as a MC meter.

bvc

 

[jetsam]

I often specifically recommend pine to novices.

They post because they bought "seasoned" wood somewhere and now they can't get it started/don't get enough heat/are making creosote.

With pine, they can split, stack, and cover it this year, and burn it next year. If they don't get started with softwood, they'll be behind the curve for a couple years (or permanently, if they don't realize what the problem is). It also burns hot, which helps the newbies to avoid creosote and get some heat going. It's easy to find- super easy in the northeast, where nobody will burn it because they all know it will burn your house down.

Pine is one of my favorite woods. I split some every year so I have some short hot fire ready for the coldest days of winter.

If you are on your first or second year with a woodstove, softwoods such as pine are a tool that you should be using. If you want to switch to hardwood, do it after the first few years, when it's dry and ready to burn.

 

[rwhite]

Or in the western 1/2 of the US where hardwoods are a premium to find and where they predominantly grow, there's not much need for a fire. I burn softwood exclusively and have never had a chimney fire. I will agree that they probably have a greater propensity to create creosote but seasoned correctly it burns just fine. What I find that causes the most grief for folks is ignoring a problem. I know exactly how seasoned wood burns in my stove. When performance drops of a bit it needs some level of attention. Recognizing it early and fixing the problem is key.

 

[jetsam]

I think about the new guy with wet wood and little knowledge of how his stove should burn in the first place. He might be asking why his purchased "seasoned" wood takes an hour to start and sizzles and hisses, or if his low heat output stove is defective, but he also has a real safety issue there and he probably does not recognize it. If I can help him get his flue temperatures up, both his problems are much better, so I will tell him to use pine every time.Not only is ot easier to get a hot fire going with wet pine, his "seasoned" pine is likely to be a LOT drier than his "seasoned" oak, both of which the wood seller probably dropped that summer.

It's easy to pooh pooh this as an experienced burner. An experienced burner could burn any of this if he had to- he'd see that it was wet nasty wood, burn higher, keep the stove hot, do very hot reloads whenever possible, dry the next few loads around the stove, and go from sweeping once or twice a year to once or twice a month. But the new guy doesn't know how to do any of that stuff (or even what the level of planning is needed to make sure that your wet nasty hardwood always goes onto a layer of red hot coal).

Where the old guy will say, "Warmer today and the wood's wet, I will let the fire go out now and burn a real hot fire after work", the new guy will say, "Warm today, I'll turn the stove down to minimum and go to work".


Typing all this out also made me laugh a bit. I grew up with a smoke dragon and open fireplaces used for heat. Our wood was often whatever we had dropped that summer. We didn't know how much better life would be if we just got a few years ahead on top covered wood- we just slogged through with wet wood for decades because that was how we had always done it. The funny part was that we recognized that dry wood burned better, but I don't recall ever having a pile of oak that was old enough to be what I'd call dry today. So maybe my characterization of old burners vs new burners is flat out backwards.

 

[ChipDouglas95]

I had almost the exact same experience with my Chinook 30. After burning about 2 1/2 cords of wood I had a chimney fire. You can read my post here:

Chimney Fire

One thing I could add to this that I didnt realize at the time was that I had a lot of smoke in the room due to the double wall stove pipe getting very hot. This tells me that there was creosote in that pipe that was burning. After the fire I was very nervous about using the stove and only ran it a couple time that season. We recenly remodeled our house so the stove was out of service until about 2 months ago. I have been using it since getting it back up and running.

I'm by no means an expert but after speaking with Blaze King and doing as much reading as I can I changed a few things. The biggest change is being sure to close the bypass as soon as I hit the active zone. I think what happened is the flames going directly up the chimney heated up what creosote was in the pipe to the point it caught fire. Could this be considered a design flaw?

Another thing is "baking" the fresh load of wood. The fresh load of wood still has a lot of moisture in it so heating it up drives off as much of that as possible sending it up the chimney while the flue is at it's hottest so as little of the moisture and smoke can condese as possible. Once that's driven off, then I turn the stove down to what's confortable. You can see this by checking what's coming out the top of the chminey. For at least 30 minutes there's a lot of water vapor and some smoke being produced. If all goes as planned, once it's turned down, there's nothing visable being produced.

I'm now going to clean the chimney very frequently until I can determine exactly how often it should be done. I cleaned it after about two weeks and it was pretty clean, just a small amout of dusty soot, certainly nothing shiny and sticky. With my last stove I burned a lot more wood and only cleaned it every other year, never had much in it and certainly never had a problem.

 

[Todd]

Check your pipe connections. If there are small gaps or loose fittings air can be sucked in and cool down your chimney creating creosote.