Need help on buying insert (measurements & picture attached)

[wg_bent]

Sean...

I looked at the Belfast site, and those appear to be replacement fireplace liners that keep the original fireplace a fireplace vs an efficient wood stove. An interesting product for sure. Is there more to these than just a fireplace retrofit?
Are they somehow more efficient than an older fireplace?

 

[Cinnaman]

The chimney sweep told me if the chimney was built correctly, it should have a 1" air space all around the terra cotta flue tiles. What is usually behind that air space? Bricks? I'm just wondering how far heat would have to travel to touch wood framing after I get the SS liner installed. SS liner, then terra cotta liner, 1" air space, bricks, then wood framing? The ficeplace was built in the early 70's, all brick hearth and chimney.

Also, do you normally scrub a firebox clean and paint it to seal any smell before installing an insert? Or do inserts fit tight enough to the face of the fireplace that the smell can't come into the room?

Dave

 

[Hogwildz]

The chimney sweep told me if the chimney was built correctly, it should have a 1" air space all around the terra cotta flue tiles. What is usually behind that air space? Bricks? I'm just wondering how far heat would have to travel to touch wood framing after I get the SS liner installed. SS liner, then terra cotta liner, 1" air space, bricks, then wood framing? The ficeplace was built in the early 70's, all brick hearth and chimney.

Also, do you normally scrub a firebox clean and paint it to seal any smell before installing an insert? Or do inserts fit tight enough to the face of the fireplace that the smell can't come into the room?

Dave

I didn't paint my fireplaces firebox. I did install a blockoff plate across the top just above the lentel. the insert covers the old firebox.

 

[MrGriz]

I installed my insert this past November. I did clean the chimney and firebox well, but did not paint anything. I also installed a blockoff plate. I ran appproximately 23' of uninsulated ss flex liner in my existing exterior chimney. So far, I have had no problems with draft, smell or any other issues.

 

[elkimmeg]

HomeSaver RoundFlex

Page 12 of Copperfields 2006 '2007 CATOLOG

HOMESAVER ROUND FLEX
UL Listed to OL 1777 for solid fuel with one wrap of 1/4" Foil-Faced Flex Wrap

UJ lListed To UL 1777 Zero Clearance for solid fuels with two wraps of 1/4" or one wrap of 1/2" Foil-Face Flex Wrap or minium of
1" Home saver Insulation Mix or TherMix ariund rhw pipe

Seems to me HomeSaver Round flex requires insulation to meet the UL 1777 listing without the insulation it is an unlisted liner and cannot be code compliant installation.

Ventinox Hi-Flex

Again taken form Copperfields page 36 Top of the page

" Hi-Flex offers a lifetime warranty for wood burning applications, and is Listed to the Ul 1777 Standard for Zero Clearanceto Combustables when properly insulated


There are many parts to the UL 1777 tests. The Temperature Tests determine whether the exterior of the chimney will stay cool enough so that combustibles touching the chimney (i.e.: floor joists, attic rafters, etc.,) won't ignite. The temperature test for solid fuels (coal and wood) simulates a chimney fire.

Other tests that the liners must go through include the Vertical Support Test, Loading Test, Strength Test, Sweep Test, Abrasion Test, Torsion Test, Flexibility Test and Rain Test. After passing all of these tests, the manufacturer must then work with UL for approval on their written installation instructions.


To have a truly UL Listed product, it must be subjected to Underwriters Laboratories for testing and later for their suprise visits to the manufacturing facility, and of course, the product must bear the UL trademark . Some companies test to UL Standards by another testing laboratory. Their product can't be UL Listed because UL didn't do the test. They often advertise as "Listed to UL 1777".

The only standard for chimney liners is UL 1777

As an inspector it is my job to see that the labeling and listing of the appliance and venting is followed to satisfy the maunfactures specs. I reqiure the manufactures specs of both the stove and any venting components to review what is required before I issue a permit.. What is required is all appliances. be it a bath fan or woodstove insert, to be properly labled and listed.

301.4 Listed and labeled. Appliances regulated by this code
shall be listed and labeled for the application in which they are
installed and used,

301.5 Labeling. Labeling shall be in accordance with the procedures
set forth in Sections 301.5.1 through 301.5.2.3.
301.5.1 Testing. An approved agency shall test a representative
sample of the mechanical equipment and appliances
being labeled to the relevant standard or standards. The
approved agency shall maintain a record of all of the tests
performed. The record shall provide sufficient detail to verify
compliance with the test standard.

301.6 Label information. A permanent factory-applied
name-plate(s) shall be affixed to appliances on which shall
appear in legible lettering, the manufacturer’s name or trademark,
the model number, serial number and the seal or mark of
the approved agency..A label shall also include the following:

3. Fuel-burning units: Hourly rating in Btu/h (W); type of
fuel approved for use with the appliance; and required
clearances.

 

[BrotherBart]

Curious Elk. Will you fail a stove or liner that was tested to UL standards by Warnack Hersey or OMNI?

 

[elkimmeg]

Curious Elk. Will you fail a stove or liner that was tested to UL standards by Warnack Hersey or OMNI?

To have a truly UL Listed product, it must be subjected to Underwriters Laboratories for testing and later for their suprise visits to the manufacturing facility, and of course, the product must bear the UL trademark . Some companies test to UL Standards by another testing laboratory. Their product can’t be UL Listed because UL didn’t do the test. They often advertise as “Listed to UL 1777

Seaken accused me of dispensing wrong information I am just trying to back up what I said.. Omni or Warnock Hersey are two certified labs that test or over see test to UL standards

If the product passes and the manufacture hired them to get it approved and pays for the listing yes Warnock Hersey or Omni can do he testing and submit theire findings to UL for approval
However have Warnock Hersey or Omni claim to have tested to a standard ,still does not mean the test were sucesfull. Some manufactures use deceptice advertising, claiming tested to a standard by a reconised certified lab. Yet they fall short of supplying evidence ,that it met the standard ,exceeded it, or failed. In the case of wood stoves the reconised standart is UL same with liners UL

 

[BrotherBart]

Curious Elk. Will you fail a stove or liner that was tested to UL standards by Warnack Hersey or OMNI?

To have a truly UL Listed product, it must be subjected to Underwriters Laboratories for testing and later for their suprise visits to the manufacturing facility, and of course, the product must bear the UL trademark . Some companies test to UL Standards by another testing laboratory. Their product can’t be UL Listed because UL didn’t do the test. They often advertise as “Listed to UL 1777

Hate to argue with ya old friend but UL Listed can be done by third parties. UL Certified has to happen in a UL lab.

Be careful failing UL Listed stuff. They don't have a burn lab.

 

[elkimmeg]

I was still adding to my post in the edit mode I agree with you UL certifies labs and proceedures even personal conducting the test. to lab or testing agencies you mentioned

Many times the test are done in house with Omni or Warnock hersey represenatives there to record the results.

 

[Gooserider]

I don't know about stoves, but I know that UL listings for electrical stuff can be done by 3rd party labs - I've baby sat equipment that was being tested. I'd even guess that there might be more labs testing FOR UL than there are UL labs... UL publishes standards and procedures, and certifies labs as "testing facilities" that can test to those standards and stand behind the results. Many of the test houses (such as Curtis-Strauss) offer "one stop" testing to meet multiple sets of standards, and in some cases will help to negotiate with the agencies to resolve conflicting testing requirements - this can be a MAJOR problem.

We were doing stuff that was going into Telco Central Offices, and we had to meet requirements for FCC, UL, CSA, Bellcore, and several other foreign national testing standards, not to mention things like earthquake resistance, and packaging that would resist shipping damages.

As to comments on the Winter Warmer, VC was working on a replacement for that unit, and they sort of admitted that the existing design wasn't the best (As much as could be said about their own product at any rate) and that the new design was intended to reduce those issues among other things. They also said that the redesign was being done because the current design was pretty much "End of Life" anyways so it was normal for them to be looking at it. This wasn't a case of "replace it early because the current design stinks"...

I don't know that I would say it is a total problem either, as I understand it the issue was one of manufacturing tolerances, some units were good and others weren't.

Gooserider

 

[seaken]

Seaken accused me of dispensing wrong information I am just trying to back up what I said.. Omni or Warnock Hersey are two certified labs that test or over see test to UL standards

I suppose that's true. I was not trying to be antagonistic and if I am proved wrong I will adjust my thinking. I believe you are correct about the insulation being needed for clearance requirements under the UL 1777. My position has always been that insulation is not needed when a chimney meets NFPA 211 requirements and that UL 1777 does not change this. However, I may be wrong that an uninsulated liner is UL Listed. If there is no UL listing for any uninsulated liner than I will change my approach. In that case it is a matter of whether UL Listing is needed at all to consider the re-line safe. I was under the opinion that both HomeSaver and Ventinox were UL Listed products regardless of insulation. I will check it out on my end.

Elk, actaully, I said I disputed your comment. I was not attempting to accuse you of pasing out bad information. If you are right then it's me who is passing bad information and I will stop it.

 

[elkimmeg]

A step backwards. Many times real world situations can not be defined by written code. Ulimately it becomes the oppinion of the inspector,
to approve or not approve these situatuions. I remodel and run into compromise situation all too often. Things in the past were done incorrectly
or termites damaged more than anticipated. It's taking these situations and making the best one can do that counts.
Making a good resonable effort to better a poor situation. Economic decisions are also a factor do the best you can reasonably.
Forum members that have personally met me I hope they come away understanding that I am fair and resonable.

I know that 1/2 insulation with mesh is not going to fit down an 8/8 or 8/12.

I agree that if the liner is only to satisfy cross-sectional code and that the clay liners and chimney is close to code and not a potential clearance hazzard I agree all that is needed it the liner
the chimney its self satisfies the safety without the liner and the UL 1777 does not need to be applied I make that judgement call.

once clay liners codtition degrade to safety concerns the insulation is required the ss liner has to stand on its own merrits.

This code should be better defined to reflect its true listing.. I can get around not requiring the listing of UL approval if the chimney is NFPA211 ok
The merits of safety is within the limits of the existing chimney.

We all want to save a $$$ and strike a compromise of good quality safety and purpose. It does you no good to loose a sale, because have to charege more when it is not needed.

On the otherhand you have to charge more to ensure safety in a less than ideal situation.

There is a post with pictures showing a severe crack in a chimney it is a structual crack 1/8" thick way past hair line and way too extensive.

As i suspected there is evidence of hollow core blocks used substituting solid core required by code backing up the fire box extending into a garage.

This is a very dangerous situation as I believe the fire box is also cracked leaving a clear shot into the garage. this is not going to be an easy fix the crack has split the cross bond blocks as well almost i nothing if left to bond the outer layer to the base.. Yess the guy has an inset running in that fireplace is it close to safe ?

 

[elkimmeg]

To BB:
Officer Jacks Texaco station told my my car was fine He tested it . Then where is the safety inspection sticker?
Well it was tested to the standard just ask Jack. I didn't have the money to pay Jack besides he wanted $15 to change that tail light bulb
The offecer is writting the repair ticket the opperating without the safety inspection and the driving without the seat belt
here is your tickets 50 for not having the sticker 50 for driving without a seatbelt, and 50 for driving without a tail light
Have a nice day..

Meanwhile I am be surcharged for thest tickets by my insurance company for the next 7 years and my driver rating just went up 3 points

Foolish for $15 So what do you think the claim test to a UL standard means? Why go through all the testing without getting it certified and the manufacturing process
certified?. Again where the proof it met the standard did it pass? I state this again, this is deceptive advertising

 

[BrotherBart]

Curious Elk. Will you fail a stove or liner that was tested to UL standards by Warnack Hersey or OMNI?

To have a truly UL Listed product, it must be subjected to Underwriters Laboratories for testing and later for their suprise visits to the manufacturing facility, and of course, the product must bear the UL trademark . Some companies test to UL Standards by another testing laboratory. Their product can’t be UL Listed because UL didn’t do the test. They often advertise as “Listed to UL 1777

Seaken accused me of dispensing wrong information I am just trying to back up what I said.. Omni or Warnock Hersey are two certified labs that test or over see test to UL standards

If the product passes and the manufacture hired them to get it approved and pays for the listing yes Warnock Hersey or Omni can do he testing and submit theire findings to UL for approval
However have Warnock Hersey or Omni claim to have tested to a standard ,still does not mean the test were sucesfull. Some manufactures use deceptice advertising, claiming tested to a standard by a reconised certified lab. Yet they fall short of supplying evidence ,that it met the standard ,exceeded it, or failed. In the case of wood stoves the reconised standart is UL same with liners UL

Well heck. Now I have to dump the two Jotuls. I looked and neither of them have the UL mark, just Warnack Hersey's. They aren't in the UL listings database on the UL website either.

Drat. I kinda liked those stoves. Shame on Jotul for deceiving me. :cheese:

Hmmm.. The UL search feature must be broken. They don't show any listings for VC either. Must be a programming problem.

 

[elkimmeg]

BB good news: I found the acepted listings for your Jotuls



The Jøtul F 100 USA woodstove has been tested and
listed to:
U.S. ANSI/UL 1482
Canada: CAN/ULC-S627-M93
Tests performed by:
ITS, Intertek Testing Services, Middleton, WI


F3CB

Standards
The Jøtul F 3 woodstove has been tested andlisted to:
U.S. Standards: ANSI/UL 737 and ANSI/UL 1482
Canada: CAN/ULC-S627-M93
Tests performed by:
ITS, Intertek Testing Services, Middleton, WI

 

[BrotherBart]

BB good news: I found the acepted listings for your Jotuls



The Jøtul F 100 USA woodstove has been tested and
listed to:
U.S. ANSI/UL 1482
Canada: CAN/ULC-S627-M93
Tests performed by:
ITS, Intertek Testing Services, Middleton, WI


F3CB

Standards
The Jøtul F 3 woodstove has been tested andlisted to:
U.S. Standards: ANSI/UL 737 and ANSI/UL 1482
Canada: CAN/ULC-S627-M93



Tests performed by:
ITS, Intertek Testing Services, Middleton, WI

Listed at Warnack Hersey. Not by UL. Therefore they aren't UL listed stoves. They are Intertek (Warnack Hersey) listed stoves.

 

[PaulyV]

Post From HearthTools:
No sure but MOST Liners need to be double wall or have an wrap to be UL 1777 listed or NPFA 211 compliant.
Check the Paperwork that came with the liner.
what I read in one copy of Forever flex instructions is a wrap is NOT needed if you know that the Chimney is built to code AND you are sure that the flue tile is in good shape. No one can tell if all the tiles in a 25 foot chimney is good or that you 1” clearance from combustables.

Most of the time the Warrantee will be void without a Flex wrap but NOT SURE ON Foreverflex.
Here are some topics on this

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/4167/

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/2634/

The attachment is a copy of a instruction sheet online
unknown how old this is.

Image Attachments

Click thumbnail to see full-size image

Forever Flex Chimney.........clearly states that it is NOT needed if its known tiles are in good shape and the fireplace is code compliant....I have NO DRAFT ISSUES...I live in the northeast...in Connecticut, roughly 24' of flue liner. I have a block off plate/ and my chimeney is blocked off on top as well.

 

[Gooserider]

BB good news: I found the acepted listings for your Jotuls



The Jøtul F 100 USA woodstove has been tested and
listed to:
U.S. ANSI/UL 1482
Canada: CAN/ULC-S627-M93
Tests performed by:
ITS, Intertek Testing Services, Middleton, WI


F3CB

Standards
The Jøtul F 3 woodstove has been tested andlisted to:
U.S. Standards: ANSI/UL 737 and ANSI/UL 1482
Canada: CAN/ULC-S627-M93



Tests performed by:
ITS, Intertek Testing Services, Middleton, WI

Listed at Warnack Hersey. Not by UL. Therefore they aren't UL listed stoves. They are Intertek (Warnack Hersey) listed stoves.

As I said earlier BB, I don't know about wood stoves, but would be supprised if they are different.

However on electronic stuff, most of the certification testing is done by INDEPENDENT TESTING FACILITIES, not affiliated with UL, but certified by them as able to test to UL standards for compliance with UL certification requirements. As mentioned earlier, my last job included "baby-sitting" some of our equipment that was getting tested by Curtis-Straus in Westford, MA... They are NOT part of UL, rather they are a UL Certified testing lab, that has been approved by UL to test FOR THEM. If C-S says that a unit passes UL testing then it is considered UL approved, and we were able to put a UL label on our equipment. C-S was also certified by a whole bunch of other agencies to do testing which is valuable because most electronics has to be blessed by different agencies, in some cases with conflicting requirements - I remember one part that went through several iterations of design before we could get something that would make all the testing agencies happy - This was done in large part by intervention of C-S pointing out to the different bodies that their requirements were contradictory and getting them all to agree to a compromise.

Bottom line - we were TESTED by Curtis Strauss, but our LISTING was UL...

Gooserider

 

[BrotherBart]

I am bailing out of this one for a while. Elk and I have to argue this one every once in a while just for the heck of it. I don't have a UL listed stove or chimney liner on the property and I have never seen one.

In fact I have never seen a UL mark on any wood stove or chimney component.

 

[elkimmeg]

Some things never change. It's ok to have different oppinions or views discussed, without taking things personal.

What I would like to see, now that it has gotten cold, is a good accounting of that Englander

how cold was the outside temps the temps recorded inside stove temps the loading routine and length of time of productive heat above 400 degrees.

It is hard to deciper the little snipits in different post. I am sincerely intrested to know how it preforms . In my own mind ,I want to know the

Value price vs performance of your stove. Taking it further. I want to know even whether the glass stays clean

Are you willing to condense it into its own sepatare post? Also so that new member usndestand your venting situation, so that they can determine if your stove, Englander,

is a viabable choice for them. Important is also customer support.

 

[BrotherBart]

Some things never change. It's ok to have different oppinions or views discussed, without taking things personal.

What I would like to see, now that it has gotten cold, is a good accounting of that Englander

how cold was the outside temps the temps recorded inside stove temps the loading routine and length of time of productive heat above 400 degrees.

It is hard to deciper the little snipits in different post. I am sincerely intrested to know how it preforms . In my own mind ,I want to know the

Value price vs performance of your stove. Taking it further. I want to know even whether the glass stays clean

Are you willing to condense it into its own sepatare post? Also so that new member usndestand your venting situation, so that they can determine if your stove, Englander,

is a viabable choice for them. Important is also customer support.

Coming soon to a post. Only two nights have counted as actually cold so far. This weekend it appears that winter is going to get serious and I will report back at length after that. It was over seventy degrees Saturday so there hasn't been much chance to see how it does.

And the last time I jumped the gun and raved too soon the door sealing issue on the first one jumped up and smacked me up side the head.

 

[elkimmeg]

Can you get an in line damper in there without pulling that beast out again?

 

[BrotherBart]

Can you get an in line damper in there without pulling that beast out again?

Nope. And installing one in an adjustable elbow would be iffy at best. I think I have found the answer for the time being with the way the wood is loaded. Slightly smaller load without the recommended "valley" raked under the center of the load. It cuts down on the blast furnace effect so gassification of the front, center and rear splits don't all occur at the same time.

It is just a fact of life though that a big ass load of wood is going make a big burn. Nothing wrong with that on a real cold night. It is just managing the thing on marginal nights that will be the challange. Just like all stoves.

Like Spike said, older wood would level it out because the second stage gas release wouldn't be as great. Probably the same issue would exist with a cat if you had that size load dumping a large load of gasses on it in a relatively short time. Rocket ship.