Need advice/Opinions

[maple1]

I have been assuming that the LP HVAC mentioned above was capable of heating the whole house - which also seems the implication of the stated desire to only supplement the LP.

If money is put into proper insulation & air sealing, that will pay future dividends forever no matter the heat source. Example - if the rim joist area wasn't done correctly, just insulating & sealing that up would make a huge difference. We don't really know much about the HVAC system, but you should also be able to direct the heat from that to areas where it's needed the most by opening & closing the related registers or the like. Or if worst comes to worst, run a short duct to the office space if the ductwork doesn't reach all rooms or areas.

Part of making a big $ decision like this is knowing fully where you're at now - which I don't think is quite the case here yet without spending a winter with it & seeing how the fuel usage is & where attention might really be needed the most. It might be possible that even if you do put a pellet stove in, you'll might still not get the warmth you want or may send a lot of your pellet heat out thru the basement walls.

 

[MIoutdoors]

I am with maple1 but issue is that OP needs an office in the cold abyss that's his basement. I don't know the areas used market and how handy he is at a self install or how well he will like feeding a pellet stove. If he had used the Magnum for a period of time and not been to negatively daunted then I would recommend a pellet unit. The prices he's stating are scary and hard to see a decent payback at this time. MHO

Hi Bioburner... I know I am all over the map in this thread and I apologize. Just a greenhorn trying to figure out what will be best for my future here at this house. I never used the Magnum, we just moved in a month ago and I pulled the magnum out almost immediately. Previous owner used it with decent result so I am told. My inspection revealed that it was cobbled together and in need of some serious maintenance plus it was installed in an inconvenient area of the main living room. Better suited for an out building eventually. it is now sitting in the corner of the garage.

I know I have a lot of thinking to do and now I am starting to look at installing foam board on poured the basement walls. The largest wall of the basement (exposed walk out) is already insulated with foam and drywall on top. I could probably add foam board to the rest of the basement fairly cheap if you guys think it will make a significant difference until the basement is finished in 5-10 years, We plan on living here 15-20 years until the kids are out of school.

So, just so I am reading right, you feel the prices I quoted above are "scary"...? Scary because I have no clue how well my house heats with the propane furnace?? Or Scary because the dealer is quoting me too much for the units and install? Just want to make sure I am clear with what you are saying, Maybe I need to shop around a bit more and contact dealers that arent 8 miles away

***Maple.... I too am assuming that the propane HVAC will heat the entire house, just not the basement to a comfortable level as there are only 2 registers in the 2000 sqft basement. My office (desk) is not in a dedicated room, Just parked against a wall with a window view of the deer out back . The rim Joist are insulated with fiberglass batt, but I am sure I could seal them up a bit better with expanding foam. Also, the pellet units I am considering in my above posts (with exception of the Harman p68) are able to be ducted using two ducts directly from the heater itself. My reading leads me to believe that 75% of the stoves heat output would be directed through these ducts. I plan on directing one to the master bed wing, and the other to the main living room. This will leave approximately 25% of the stoves heat blown into the basement area where I am working, Maybe I am not understanding things correctly.... It doesn't sound like a bad plan on paper, but you bring up the very valid point of not knowing what I am really dealing with having not lived here and entire winter. Thank you sir for the voice of reason..

More research, more reading, and more thinking

Thanks again.
Jeff

 

[Bioburner]

Scary because of the $$$$ of unit and install. The last refurbished PC45 Harman I sold for $1500 delivered. Materials for install where under $200. Been heating the new owners walkout home in Wisconsin without a problem for 2 heating seasons.

 

[maple1]

Just for more info - if you go here:

http://www.pelletheat.org/compare-fuel-costs

and play with the numbers you can get a rough idea on possible potential savings based on fuel costs.

Example: LP at $1.29 is a bit less in cost (5%) than pellets at $245/ton. Assuming equal efficiencies etc. - so of course there is still some uncertainties.

On the rim joists - FG alone is not that good. Air will get sucked in - stack effect during winter will drive that. I also sealed mine with vapour barrier and acoustical caulk, over the FG. That was a real PITA & would not likely do it again like that - rather, I would cut pieces of foam board to roughly fit each space & use expanding foam around their edges to hold in place.

I also have to think you should be able to find a decent used pellet unit for a good price, with the fuel cost situation & pellet burners who got in when fossils spiked, now getting back out. I wouldn't get too hung up on being able to duct it per se - you could play with floor fans to move air around, for this first winter at least.

 

[Bioburner]

If I were to redo my rim joist spaces I would go with a Froth-pak system. Just shoot in foam in the spaces. Fast, tight and easy. Good insulation numbers

 

[MIoutdoors]

Scary because of the $$$$ of unit and install. The last refurbished PC45 Harman I sold for $1500 delivered. Materials for install where under $200. Been heating the new owners walkout home in Wisconsin without a problem for 2 heating seasons.

The quotes I listed are for brand new units. Case in point, The Enerzone Euromax unit is $4349.00 plus tax, plus venting, plus hot air kit $199.99, plus duct work for the hot air kit, and plus labor. Looking at my quote, they are charging $700 for labor. Rest is the stove, venting and ductwork. Is that out of the ball park? Although mechanically inclined, I don't feel comfortable installing a stove like this.

Maple1... I am going to look into getting a quote to have my rim joists spray foamed. Come to find out there is a rather large spray foam company in my small rural town that does commercial and residential. I am going to stop by and see what they say. Like you said, regardless of heat source, insulation will pay off no matter what. The house was built in 2009 so I don't think insulation is a serious problem. The attic has rolled and blown insulation from the builder. I will see what the spray foam guys say. Looking at the 2 inch foam board, that stuff isnt cheap. Might be more cost effective and a better use of my time with the baby on the way to hire the foam guys. I will report back with what they say.

Thanks for the help!

 

[MIoutdoors]

Called the local spray foam guy... he said based on 2000 sqft, I would be looking at approximately 1000.00 - 1200.00 to spray foam all my rim joists. He would come out and give me a detailed quote of I was seriously considering.
Thoughts?

 

[maple1]

Yes, the house insulation aspect would hopefully be good with a house that new - unless some serious shortcuts were taken along the way. The bare basement walls & making sure on the rim joist area are low hanging fruit. After that - maybe check out the attic area for proper air sealing (around ceiling light fixtures, wall/ceiling joints etc. - requires a level of attention to detail sometimes not given by a builder), then maybe the 'builder grade' windows? Some states have decent incentives for that kind of energy efficiency upgrade stuff.

 

[maple1]

Called the local spray foam guy... he said based on 2000 sqft, I would be looking at approximately 1000.00 - 1200.00 to spray foam all my rim joists. He would come out and give me a detailed quote of I was seriously considering.
Thoughts?

I have no experience dealing with that - but rough figuring, works out to around $10/sq.ft. of sprayed surface. Which seems like a lot - but I don't know what a job like that goes for. Would he spray over the FG, or remove it first? DIY using foamboard and expanding foam, over the FG, should definitely be cheaper - but you'd have to factor in time spent, somehow.

 

[MIoutdoors]

I have no experience dealing with that - but rough figuring, works out to around $10/sq.ft. of sprayed surface. Which seems like a lot - but I don't know what a job like that goes for. Would he spray over the FG, or remove it first? DIY using foamboard and expanding foam, over the FG, should definitely be cheaper - but you'd have to factor in time spent, somehow.

They essentially remove the FG batt and spray closed cell foam in the boxes between the joists. Based on what I read, really good R-value and it completely seals the area from air, moisture, condensation etc... Just not sure if I would see a huge difference over the cut foam board and can spray foam DIY. I have a headache.

I am going to stop by another dealer 15 miles away and talk to them about the Enviro Maxx and installation costs for my potential set up. I am going to get an idea if the original dealer is over charging for labor. Installing the Enviro Maxx, Enerzone Euromax, Osburn 7000 or Drolet eco65 should all be around the same price. the last 3 are all made by SBI and are essentially the same heater with different warranties and some different parts. The Enviro Maxx is very similar as well. All will need exhaust and OAK run then there is more $$$ associated with the duct work for the plenum and 2 runs from the stove into the floor registers.

We shall see.

 

[Bioburner]

I checked what the cost of a Froth-pak 200 by Dow cost at Menards and was $350. Will do 200 square ft 1 inch thick. My rim joist has 1 inch foam board but many cracks around each piece. I would just shoot over the edge seams in my case. Neighbor used this with great success to seal up his new to him home with great success. Check it out. Easy.

 

[MIoutdoors]

I checked what the cost of a Froth-pak 200 by Dow cost at Menards and was $350. Will do 200 square ft 1 inch thick. My rim joist has 1 inch foam board but many cracks around each piece. I would just shoot over the edge seams in my case. Neighbor used this with great success to seal up his new to him home with great success. Check it out. Easy.

That sir... Might be the way to go.... I am going to look into it a bit more. i just counted the boxes between the hoist in my basement and i have approximately 70. If that kit will do 200 square feet, I am going to go buy it today!! Maybe not as good as what the pros use, but at 1/3rd the price, you really cant go wrong.

 

[MIoutdoors]

Here is another source... not sure if it is different from the Froth-pak but it seems like this stuff can do the entire joist box and not just the edges. Dow recommends the froth-pak "210" for coverage other than 4 inches wide and 1 inch deep from what I read. Probably 6 of one, half dozen of the other...

https://sprayfoamkit.com/products/s...en-202-closed-cell-spray-foam-insulation-kit/

 

[Bioburner]

Big problem with the rim joist at least in my experience is air infiltration and this stuff would cover that issue without any problem and shooting it over the board insulation is a plus in the R factor. I found couple of half sheets of 2 inch board in a dumpster at a construction site. Free
Time right now is on your side, latter in season not so

 

[MIoutdoors]

Big problem with the rim joist at least in my experience is air infiltration and this stuff would cover that issue without any problem and shooting it over the board insulation is a plus in the R factor. I found couple of half sheets of 2 inch board in a dumpster at a construction site. Free
Time right now is on your side, latter in season not so

Well.. I may just start moving on the Pellet heater and this winter, when I do have more time, I will address the insulation and make sure everything is as sealed up as it can be. New baby is coming and for the next few months, I will have NO time for DIY type stuff.

Stopped at the other local stove dealer in my area. The sell Enviro products. I asked about the Maxx and they didn't seem to know much about it. I essentially had to explain that with the duct kit, it could run leads from the stove to registers in the living area. They had no idea. Needless to say, I didn't get a very confident feeling from them. The rep was trying to push me towards the Cab-50 and a Quadrafire unit...

Research continues.
I would really like to hear from some forum members that have one of the three units I am considering. Not sure if this should be the start of a new thread or not.. ???

1) Enerzone Euromax
2) Enviro Maxx
3) Osburn 7000 (essentially the same as the Enerzone)

I did search the forum and found a user "Ambient" who owned the Osburn 7000 and seemed to have a bunch of issues dialing it in, with error codes etc.

 

[Bioburner]

Problem your going to have now is that until we start lighting fires there is not that much traffic here

 

[MIoutdoors]

Problem your going to have now is that until we start lighting fires there is not that much traffic here

True... I will give it a try. Send the flag up the pole and see if any one salutes. I really appreciate all the info you guys have provided here, I just need to try and get some specific information from stove owners regarding the two or three stoves I am considering. If I decide to pull the trigger on something, I will probably be on hear with questions anyway. Will be nice to identify who has what in case I need specific info.

Thanks!

 

[tmorton]

First post here but I just thought I would provide some of my own experience.

House is located in N.E. OK Log home with basement. To say it is drafty would be an understatement. However we did have all of the basement walls spray foamed last year and it made a massive difference. We have are all electric and have a Lopi Liberty on the main floor. 3 stories including basement @ 5300Sq ft. The liberty would keep up but the mornings suck even getting temps up in the evening and loading full and slowing the burn way down with some minimal coals left in the morning was not fun.

Just some information on concrete R-Value in case you did not know.

The R-value of an uninsulated, 8-inch-thick basement wall built using normal-weight concrete is 1.35, based on data from the 1993 American Society of Heating, Refrigeration, and Air-Conditioning Engineers' Handbook. By doubling the thickness of the wall to 16 inches, the R-value only increases by 0.50.

I just picked up 3 tons of Pellets today 189 a ton plus dealer made me a deal and gave me one free ton because I bought a new Absolute 63.
Absolute-63 will go in the basement there is a open stairwell and I already run the HVAC fan to help distribute heat. The main goal is to avoid having to run the electric furnace / heat pump. if I don't have to keep feeding the Lopi that will be an additional bonus. I have had 600+ electric bills in the past so spending 500 on pellets for the year is a no brainer.

One last thing is I am doing the install myself but it is a short run out the concrete. I will be using a core drill tomorrow to get that done. I will probably take a few pics along the way.

HTH
Ty

 

[bbone]

I have the Drolet Eco 65 in not insulated basement. I ran the 2 ducts to the next floor and it works great and my basement is nice and warm. You will have to run stove a lot to really bring the temp of your whole house up. It maintains the temperature very well and adds a few degrees over a few hours. I run it about 1/2 power most of the time and it heats 1250 feet floor that has ducts very well, and some heat goes to the top floor that is also 1250 SF. My house is 12 years old and insulated well. So the ducting does work as advertised. Any questions please feel free to ask
Bone