Need a secondary heat source.. Wood or Pellet?

[Dustin92]

I appreciate all the replies and we're definitely working on sealing the house up, but we're trying to decide on which type of stove to install and the pros and cons of each.. Maybe even some recommendations on brands or models.. We will be installing either a wood or pellet stove before the end of this heating season.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Take a look at the pic.

 

[Dustin92]

Take a look at the pic.

View attachment 306244

Thank You! We definitely don't have any of that insulation.. Per the photo I filled a few gaps between the sill plate and foundation with expanding foam.

 

[mdocod]

We're warming up slowly as the outdoor temps rise, thankfully. I suppose we were never really at a point where we "couldnt" stay warm but comfort was less than optimal to say the least. No giant holes but definitely small issues that need to be addressed. We bought the house the end of June and were just able to move in around Halloween.

There are return ducts, which are connected to 2, 2"x12" floor registers, both on the 1st floor. Doesn't seem like enough return capacity to me but the furnace was installed professionally. Basement is just generally cold and drafty, I'm going to cover and insulate the 2 windows. There is a complete concrete foundation all the way around, and no major gaps that I can see. Basement is connected to an unfinished crawlspace (I've been in the crawlspace and not noticed any major gaps, filled ones I saw with expanding foam)

Modern high efficiency furnaces must flow significantly volumes of air over the heat exchanger to draw down the exhaust to condensing temps. Many of them have safety mechanisms that will prevent operation if they can't achieve enough flow, however, depending on the type of safety mechanism, it may allow intermittent operation until the EGT's hit a limiter.. I would expect the return duct on a 60K BTU condensing furnace with short runs would need to be about 1 square foot of cross section in total... If that's split out to multiple registers, that's fine, but they need to branch out to something that adds up to around that same amount of cross section or more, and the registers themselves, which act as a point of restriction, should have more cross section than the ducts... For example, if you have a 6" round duct for a return, it should probably interface with a 4X10 grate.

While the house may have insulation problems and leaks, it's also possible that you're not even getting a fraction of the heat possible out of that furnace because it is being staved of air and only operating the burner intermittently.

Ideally speaking a ducting system for a modern furnace should have enough registers/ducts that the air velocity through the registers around the house is actually pretty low, but adds up to lots of flow with minimal restriction.

If you think you're pretty solid on finding and sealing up leaks... the next point to hit, as others have stressed, is certainly attic and the top of walls. It's common for insulation to have settled down the walls, leaving the top corners in bad shape, which is where all the heat goes, so is where the insulation is needed most. It's also common over the years in a home for previous homeowners to dishevel or remove attic insulation for various reasons, especially if animals or bugs turned it into a nesting situation. Try to make sure that all surfaces in the attic over living spaces have at least ~8". Modern code calls for more in your zone/region, but if money is tight just get what you can up there. Blown/loose-fill products of various types can be install by hand. Wear a good mask, maybe respirator, headlamp, and be very careful where you step, making sure to keep your weight on the trusses. A few hundred bucks worth of loose fill would probably get things off to a good start.

 

[rijim]

To the point of your original question; if you have the time and space to cut split and store wood 2 years in advance, the free wood is a deal that is hard to pass up on, however, the existing chimney is likely not an option as is, the cost of the stove, a liner and a hearth will be high. Short term your best bet may be a used pellet stove in good condition. Start cutting & splitting wood to get 2-3 years ahead and start to save for an upgrade to a wood stove and chimney upgrade.

 

[Dustin92]

Modern high efficiency furnaces must flow significantly volumes of air over the heat exchanger to draw down the exhaust to condensing temps. Many of them have safety mechanisms that will prevent operation if they can't achieve enough flow, however, depending on the type of safety mechanism, it may allow intermittent operation until the EGT's hit a limiter.. I would expect the return duct on a 60K BTU condensing furnace with short runs would need to be about 1 square foot of cross section in total... If that's split out to multiple registers, that's fine, but they need to branch out to something that adds up to around that same amount of cross section or more, and the registers themselves, which act as a point of restriction, should have more cross section than the ducts... For example, if you have a 6" round duct for a return, it should probably interface with a 4X10 grate.

While the house may have insulation problems and leaks, it's also possible that you're not even getting a fraction of the heat possible out of that furnace because it is being staved of air and only operating the burner intermittently.

Ideally speaking a ducting system for a modern furnace should have enough registers/ducts that the air velocity through the registers around the house is actually pretty low, but adds up to lots of flow with minimal restriction.

If you think you're pretty solid on finding and sealing up leaks... the next point to hit, as others have stressed, is certainly attic and the top of walls. It's common for insulation to have settled down the walls, leaving the top corners in bad shape, which is where all the heat goes, so is where the insulation is needed most. It's also common over the years in a home for previous homeowners to dishevel or remove attic insulation for various reasons, especially if animals or bugs turned it into a nesting situation. Try to make sure that all surfaces in the attic over living spaces have at least ~8". Modern code calls for more in your zone/region, but if money is tight just get what you can up there. Blown/loose-fill products of various types can be install by hand. Wear a good mask, maybe respirator, headlamp, and be very careful where you step, making sure to keep your weight on the trusses. A few hundred bucks worth of loose fill would probably get things off to a good start.

We're definitely getting good airflow through the supply vents (at least on the 1st floor) and the furnace isn't cutting off on high limit.. The burner is staying on until the thermostat kicks off and seems to be working as designed.. I just can't help but think the returns are a bit undersized.. Furnace was installed professionally in 2020.

Unfortunately no easy attic access.. Would likely have to be from a 2nd story peak vent and that is NOT going to be me. We're staying comfortable on all but the coldest days with just the furnace, we're in the 20's today and wind has died down and it's keeping up just fine, mostly on 1st stage.

We really would like to add a wood or pellet stove as a secondary heat source regardless of insulation status because we both agree wood heat just feels warmer, and we're going to continue making imorovements and upgrades as time and funds allow.

We also have some electrical and plumbing issues to address before going too far with improvements, I have a bedroom with no power and a bathtub drain that involves a rain gutter 😅

 

[Dustin92]

To the point of your original question; if you have the time and space to cut split and store wood 2 years in advance, the free wood is a deal that is hard to pass up on, however, the existing chimney is likely not an option as is, the cost of the stove, a liner and a hearth will be high. Short term your best bet may be a used pellet stove in good condition. Start cutting & splitting wood to get 2-3 years ahead and start to save for an upgrade to a wood stove and chimney upgrade.

Kind of what I was expecting.. My mom desperately wants a pellet stove, and I just love the warm radiant heat from a wood stove.. The whole experience from building the fire to tending it and keeping the stove clean is just kind of relaxing to me.. We definitely have the space to store 2yrs worth of wood, potentially even covered/indoors but time, not particularly. Having just moved in we're still working on getting settled and I'm thinking you're right.. I think I'll go for the set it and forget it pellet stove, maybe upgrading to a wood stove eventually. I can always hope anyway! I've been scanning Craigslist and Facebook marketplace for used pellet stoves and waiting for something to jump out at me. Missed a really nice one a couple weeks ago when our vehicle was in the shop, then the vehicle repair took care of the extra money. Now we're back at square 1 with plan "B" just getting off the ground.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Any ceiling light fixtures on the 2nd floor? Pull the fixture and carefully seal around the box and wire pass throughs. Leaking air really robs heat.

 

[Dustin92]

Any ceiling light fixtures on the 2nd floor? Pull the fixture and carefully seal around the box and wire pass throughs. Leaking air really robs heat.

Yes there's 3, one in each bedroom and one in the stairwell. What should I use to seal them? Also would it be any benefit to seal where walls and ceilings meet? Seems to be some small gaps or cracks there

 

[Woodcutter Tom]

Furnace does not have outside air supply but is in the unfinished basement..

My understanding of high efficient furnace is that the air supply is pulled from the outside via PVC tubing (2" in my case); not from the interior of the basement. PLUS the exhaust (which is also PVC) and the intake need to be within 6 - 9 inches of the other. Whenever you look at the intake and exhaust on the outside of a house they are side by side. From the furnace to the outside the PVC needs to have a rise. By that I mean that the PVC comes straight up out of the furnace box and then runs horizontal to an outside wall. Once it turns horizontal it still must run on an incline to where it exits the house.

but the furnace was installed professionally.

I'd find another "professional".

Does your intake and exhaust look like this? If you go to the actual youtube page and read the notes, you will read why it is done this way.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Yes there's 3, one in each bedroom and one in the stairwell. What should I use to seal them? Also would it be any benefit to seal where walls and ceilings meet? Seems to be some small gaps or cracks there

I’d use a silicone caulk. It probably goes without saying, but make sure the power is off, it’s probably not a bad idea to wire nut the bare ends of the wires while you’re working on them, and do as neat a job as possible so the wires fit back in the box. You should be able to push all extra sealant out to the other side of the box so nothing is left inside.

Are the cracks just from expansion and contraction of the plaster or drywall, or is there an applied ceiling over broken plaster?

 

[begreen]

I’d use a silicone caulk. It probably goes without saying, but make sure the power is off, it’s probably not a bad idea to wire nut the bare ends of the wires while you’re working on them, and do as neat a job as possible so the wires fit back in the box. You should be able to push all extra sealant out to the other side of the box so nothing is left inside.

Are the cracks just from expansion and contraction of the plaster or drywall, or is there an applied ceiling over broken plaster?

If silicone is used, make sure it is the non-acetic acid variety. The first gen silicones were corrosive due to the acid. You can smell the vinegary scent as it cures.

 

[begreen]

Wood can be had cheap or free. Pellets not so much but definitely easier and less cleanup. Pellets stove needs power to run.. Wood stove doesn't. I think I have enough of a handle on running both types of stove to do so safely and efficiently. Pros and cons of both?

Hey Dustin92, this comes up every now and then. Here's one of the past threads on the topic. If you want more, do a search on Wood vs Pellet, in this forum, titles only, and several will show up.

Wood Stoves vs. Pellet Stoves?

Dear Experts, With help from this forum, I was all set to buy a $3000 soapstone wood stove. Thank you, great help! Just then, a good friend urged me to by a pellet stove instead! From the wood stove purists, can some of you please explain the benefits of a wood stove over a pellet stove?

www.hearth.com

 

[Dustin92]

My understanding of high efficient furnace is that the air supply is pulled from the outside via PVC tubing (2" in my case); not from the interior of the basement. PLUS the exhaust (which is also PVC) and the intake need to be within 6 - 9 inches of the other. Whenever you look at the intake and exhaust on the outside of a house they are side by side. From the furnace to the outside the PVC needs to have a rise. By that I mean that the PVC comes straight up out of the furnace box and then runs horizontal to an outside wall. Once it turns horizontal it still must run on an incline to where it exits the house.

I'd find another "professional".

Does your intake and exhaust look like this? If you go to the actual youtube page and read the notes, you will read why it is done this way.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

There is no outside air intake. It has a connection on the furnace for one, but has a pvc grate type thing on it.. It does definitely intake air there, but a very small amount. Exhaust is 2" pvc going up to ceiling level, across between the floor joists and outside. Once outside it goes 90 degrees up about a foot and another 90 degrees with a wire screen on the end (probably to keep wasps out, we have a ton here). Surprisingly very little comes out of the exhaust, and barely warm. Furnace was installed in 2020 and we bought the house this June.. Moved in end of October. Whether right or wrong it does seem to work.

 

[Dustin92]

I’d use a silicone caulk. It probably goes without saying, but make sure the power is off, it’s probably not a bad idea to wire nut the bare ends of the wires while you’re working on them, and do as neat a job as possible so the wires fit back in the box. You should be able to push all extra sealant out to the other side of the box so nothing is left inside.

Are the cracks just from expansion and contraction of the plaster or drywall, or is there an applied ceiling over broken plaster?

I have some electrical work that needs to be done and I'll be replacing the fixtures so I'll seal that up at the same time. Really no gaps in the ceilings just poorly fit drywall where the walls and ceilings meet. Walls and ceilings are drywall.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I would rub paintable sealant into the cracks.