NC educators leaving the state

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(broken link removed to http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-02-26/news/ct-chicago-schools-discipline-met-20140226_1_charter-schools-andrew-broy-district-run-schools)
Innovation at charter schools apparently means kick out the low performers.
I would think its possible the charter schools get a lot of low performers looking to avoid going to school in the first place. By its very nature charter/cyber school would not work unless there is a lot of parental involvement and supervision ,which is also rare in some cases.
I may use it again if we travel extensively. Other wise i think the kids are better off in a regular school be it public or private.
 
I don't expect nor do I want the public school system to install any values in my children. It is my right, duty and pleasure to install values in my children. The public school system's function is to tech them how to read, write, do arithmetic, learn about non-revisionist history and objective science etc etc

Also comparing Denmark to the US is comparing apples and oranges. the populations of each nation and the issues the deal with are completely different.

What "values" do you feel public schools are "indoctrinating"? Concrete examples as I'm just not understanding what you're objecting to.....

I hate to break it to you - every social interaction confirms or challenges values and morals.
 
So teachers should be indifferent to lying, stealing, harassment, disrespect, violence, tardiness, destruction of common property, intolerance, arrogance etc. etc.?

And btw. I hope my kid's school is teaching revisionist history instead of passing on made-up fairy tales just because some group likes the moral of it but which never occurred that way. Non-revisionist history and objective science are mutually exclusive.


There's a difference between dealing with the things you mentioned which all can be said to have negative/disruptive consequences and teachers/administrators actively subjecting students to their own personal political and social views.

Also you seem to imply that revisionism for the sake of revisionism is good with no regard for the truth.
 
What "values" do you feel public schools are "indoctrinating"? Concrete examples as I'm just not understanding what you're objecting to.....

I hate to break it to you - every social interaction confirms or challenges values and morals.


I don't care to wander too far into the realm of politics but there's really no way to answer your question aside from coming out and saying it bluntly. The fact is that on the whole our public K-12 schools are dominated by intolerant, totalitarian, leftists. When one looks at the current state of affairs on our college campuses the problem can be seen to be exponentially worse.
(broken link removed to http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/12/22/teen-whose-teacher-told-her-to-take-off-pro-romney-shirt-compared-it-to-the-kkk-is-suing-the-district/)
 
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There's a difference between dealing with the things you mentioned which all can be said to have negative/disruptive consequences and teachers/administrators actively subjecting students to their own personal political and social views.

And you had a lot of experience yet with teachers "indoctrinating" your children? I also would hazard the guess that it is only those "liberal" views you are concerned with.

You know, one of the values I want to pass on to my children is to think for themselves. If they are unable to take different opinions and facts from various sources and based on those form their own view than I won't consider myself a good parent. Btw. that may include having a different opinion than my own. I raised kids, not clones.

Also you seem to imply that revisionism for the sake of revisionism is good with no regard for the truth.

Your comprehension of what I wrote is rather baffling. Non-revisionist history means a distorted version of past events is passed on despite new data that shed a different light on the issue and require an revised interpretation. Hence, non-revisionist history is often neglecting the "truth". (Ever seen "Rashomon"? Maybe it would teach you something regarding the ultimate "truth".)
 
Next you will be telling me that Christopher Columbus wasn't the first one to find this place. We all know he did.
 
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And you had a lot of experience yet with teachers "indoctrinating" your children? I also would hazard the guess that it is only those "liberal" views you are concerned with.

You know, one of the values I want to pass on to my children is to think for themselves. If they are unable to take different opinions and facts from various sources and based on those form their own view than I won't consider myself a good parent. Btw. that may include having a different opinion than my own. I raised kids, not clones.

Your comprehension of what I wrote is rather baffling. Non-revisionist history means a distorted version of past events is passed on despite new data that shed a different light on the issue and require an revised interpretation. Hence, non-revisionist history is often neglecting the "truth". (Ever seen "Rashomon"? Maybe it would teach you something regarding the ultimate "truth".)

I don't think teachers should be advocating either liberal or conservative values. The vast majority of academic learning at the k-12 grade levels does not easily lend itself to segways into discussion of political and social issues. How do you go from learning about the rules of grammar or how to solve for x in algebra to talking about political and social issues?

Being exposed to opinions differing from one's own is great as long as the discourse is appropriate to the setting and there is civility and mutual respect. Did you read the story I linked to in an earlier post about the Geometry teacher that demanded a student remove a political t-shirt that she did not agree with and then chastised and ridiculed the student in the classroom?

I understand what revisionist history is. To me it sounded as if you were suggesting that any and all revisionist history is good. My point was that there are many different motivations and agendas that go along with revising history and many of them have no regard for the truth.
 
Certainly agree with that, particularly when creationism is substituted for science. Most of our history is revisionist, particularly in grade schools. That is because almost all text books are vetted by the self-righteous Texas or Tennessee school boards. Little if anything is printed about the slaughter and horrors of Columbus's expeditions, native American decimation via some of the most vile means, the huge scam that was the first transcontinental railroad, etc.
 
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Our entire educational hierarchy is and has been based on throwing out the low performers. That was the whole Bell Curve thing, which got lost in the PC discussion and outrage which followed the publication of the book.

I have always wanted more vo-tech schools and more of the euro way of testing youth to find out what suits them best. Some people are mechanical geniuses - others are wordsmiths. Too much of our system doesn't allow for all of this.

Little story - I'm always looking for small volunteer efforts, so I saw something about mentoring kids in the local vo-techs. This, I thought, would be perfect as I have experience in the trades, HVAC, carpentry, etc.

So, I went to meet with the manager of this particular program. The school was big and impressive and I was surprised when she mentioned that there were about 4 others in the area that they were aligned with. Maybe I had found the promised land...where youth learn careers, etc.????

Well, after talking about 20 minutes I detected certain "code words" which were being used. Long story short, what she was telling me was that these schools were the dumping grounds for kids who couldn't make it socially or academically - and, furthermore, what they called "mentoring" sounded more like social work!

She talked about a few kids and really thought I would be a great mentor. I even went through the background criminal check. Then we talked and I said one thing to her - that I tended to do much better working with kids who had some aptitude in the trade or training they were taking - in other words, I truly wanted to mentor vo-tech youth! Well, lo and behold, they were unable to find a youth for me to work with....because they were looking for Big Brothers and Sisters, not for actual mentors.

It left me feeling a bit sad - all these campuses, facilities, staff and kids and the whole thing is mostly a front trying to keep the heads of these kids above water (I was told that the stories were depressing...about their home lives, etc. etc.).....

What the heck can you do about stuff like that? It's depressing. The money is there, the staff is there, the kids are there...but the society and home life is so screwed up that all of it means nothing.

Sad.
 
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I don't think teachers should be advocating either liberal or conservative values. The vast majority of academic learning at the k-12 grade levels does not easily lend itself to segways into discussion of political and social issues. How do you go from learning about the rules of grammar or how to solve for x in algebra to talking about political and social issues?

Being exposed to opinions differing from one's own is great as long as the discourse is appropriate to the setting and there is civility and mutual respect. Did you read the story I linked to in an earlier post about the Geometry teacher that demanded a student remove a political t-shirt that she did not agree with and then chastised and ridiculed the student in the classroom?

What really puzzles me is that someone opens a thread claiming to want moral, well-rounded, less materialistic children but then infantilizes them by having their social and political views solely being taught and approved by their parents, instead of allowing those children to incorporate ideas and opinions from all kinds of sources. If something worries me about the education of a new generation, then it is that attitude of censorship by "Big Parent" that you seem to advocate. A school is exactly one of the places and settings for civil discourse out of mutual respect, knowledge, and different viewpoints and experiences. If one teacher denigrates a student for a different political view, he/she has no business being a teacher, but the same could be said of a parent - just no one will say anything. I hope you remember to stay civil when one of your children sits at the dinner table wearing a "Pro Keynes" T-shirt. But that is never going to happen with your children, isn't it? How can you ever have discussions when differing views are not even known? Thus, discussions about social and political issues have certainly a place in school at least as much as at the dinner table.

I am also wondering how you want to teach literature for example and read a classical or modern novel without touching political and social issues. That would be an awfully short list. Moreover, history would be banned from the curriculum and geography shortened to reading maps. Let's not talk about contentious topics in biology such as sex, evolution, or gene engineering. And how about arithmetic? Here is a simple example what happens when you apply it:

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Let's face it: We live in a political and social world. Our children need to learn about it as much as the can from as many different angles as possible to become the well-rounded adults you would also like to have. Our duty as parents is to support their exploration of our world, not act as a gatekeeper.

I understand what revisionist history is. To me it sounded as if you were suggesting that any and all revisionist history is good. My point was that there are many different motivations and agendas that go along with revising history and many of them have no regard for the truth.

And who told you that the prior version was the "truth" and not some revisionist fantasy?
 
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My children are adults now and as such our political conversations are usually them telling me what they found out about political leaders of both the US and Canada (information I wasn't aware of:)). Surprised how well they sought out information on the political parties/leaders - attending or watching televised debates, watching news from multiple sources, websites. They make their own informed choices. As to the article you posted, I wonder how the lawsuit went were the judge was privy to both sides of the story - there are always two. Never ran into this kind of problem and I know some of my children's previous teachers have different political leanings than my husband and I. We had discussions on merits of parties/leaders with them outside of the classroom with kids present - these civil discussions were important for the kids to see too. The teacher's viewpoints never showed up in the classroom; discussions centered on organization of the political system and basic philosophies of each party. They had one exercise that had students pick one political party, research their viewpoints, hold an "election campaign" and have a vote. A lesson they really enjoyed and was well managed ... a test run of being a contributing member of a democracy.

I did have one incident where a son was wearing a t-shirt of questionable taste, I warned him that it really wasn't appropriate and could get him into trouble, his choice to wear it (he was 16) but take a spare t-shirt...

"History" that has missing information should be questioned. I wrote a university history paper based on that premise - two viewpoints were presented in an article that totally lacked representation of two other viewpoints. Motivations of those two disregarded viewpoints were very relevant. I got a passing grade but lost points on that one:(
 
What really puzzles me is that someone opens a thread claiming to want moral, well-rounded, less materialistic children but then infantilizes them by having their social and political views solely being taught and approved by their parents, instead of allowing those children to incorporate ideas and opinions from all kinds of sources. If something worries me about the education of a new generation, then it is that attitude of censorship by "Big Parent" that you seem to advocate. A school is exactly one of the places and settings for civil discourse out of mutual respect, knowledge, and different viewpoints and experiences. If one teacher denigrates a student for a different political view, he/she has no business being a teacher, but the same could be said of a parent - just no one will say anything. I hope you remember to stay civil when one of your children sits at the dinner table wearing a "Pro Keynes" T-shirt. But that is never going to happen with your children, isn't it? How can you ever have discussions when differing views are not even known? Thus, discussions about social and political issues have certainly a place in school at least as much as at the dinner table.

I am also wondering how you want to teach literature for example and read a classical or modern novel without touching political and social issues. That would be an awfully short list. Moreover, history would be banned from the curriculum and geography shortened to reading maps. Let's not talk about contentious topics in biology such as sex, evolution, or gene engineering. And how about arithmetic? Here is a simple example what happens when you apply it:

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Let's face it: We live in a political and social world. Our children need to learn about it as much as the can from as many different angles as possible to become the well-rounded adults you would also like to have. Our duty as parents is to support their exploration of our world, not act as a gatekeeper.



And who told you that the prior version was the "truth" and not some revisionist fantasy?



As I stated earlier I agree with you that it's a good thing when different opinions and views are discussed. It's a healthy and necessary part of the process of becoming a healthy, stable, well rounded person.


However if you look at the current state of our current K-12 system and much more so our colleges and universities you will see that liberals and hardcore leftists dominate the discussion and are in fact extremely intolerant and dismissive of those who would offer views which differ from their own. They frequently ridicule and belittle anyone who dare questions them through the use of socially stigmatizing epithets. They are the masters of cheap identity politics. This is a fact. If you choose to deny this fact I'd be more than happy to provide example after example after example after example of this while challenging you to provide examples where conservatives/non liberals have behaved in the same way. The ironic thing is that it's these intolerant, feeble minded leftist educators who claim to be the most open minded among us.

I think maybe I've not made my point clear enough regarding the revisionist history comment. I never claimed that the original version of history was always the most accurate. What I believe is that most revisionist history is conducted with an agenda, that agenda quite often is not an adherence to historical accuracy and objectivity, and that many people accept popular revisionist history at face value. I'll give you an example. It's all the rage among historians to claim the Europeans who settled this nation were absolutely brutal and inhumane in dealing with the natives that were already living here. Many historians paint the picture that the natives tribes were all living in a peaceful utopia amongst themselves before the Europeans showed up. The basic idea is that Natives = good and europeans = bad and there can be no deviation from this narrative. While it's true that the Europeans did in fact quite often and over an very long time exhibit a complete disregard for native as humans it's also true that many of the different native groups were guilty of the exact same behavior toward one another before the Europeans ever showed up. It's also true that many natives, unprovoked, would attack and murder and torture european settlers. To their credit their are some historians that want to discuss all aspects of this period in our history rather than settling on the mainstream historical account.
 
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My wife is on one of her many paid vacation this week. From Saturday to Wednesday she has spent over 60+hrs and $300 painting backdrops and organizing functions at two separate schools for various things that aren't her job and for which she is not getting paid.

But more importantly, where's my dinner?
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The ironic thing is that it's these intolerant, feeble minded leftist educators who claim to be the most open minded among us.

Is that an example of the mutual respect and civility you want to teach your children? They are not even in school but you are already denigrating a whole group of hardworking citizens who for the most part try their best to give kids a good education.

I think maybe I've not made my point clear enough regarding the revisionist history comment. I never claimed that the original version of history was always the most accurate. What I believe is that most revisionist history is conducted with an agenda, that agenda quite often is not an adherence to historical accuracy and objectivity, and that many people accept popular revisionist history at face value. I'll give you an example. It's all the rage among historians to claim the Europeans who settled this nation were absolutely brutal and inhumane in dealing with the natives that were already living here. Many historians paint the picture that the natives tribes were all living in a peaceful utopia amongst themselves before the Europeans showed up. The basic idea is that Natives = good and europeans = bad and there can be no deviation from this narrative. While it's true that the Europeans did in fact quite often and over an very long time exhibit a complete disregard for native as humans it's also true that many of the different native groups were guilty of the exact same behavior toward one another before the Europeans ever showed up. It's also true that many natives, unprovoked, would attack and murder and torture european settlers. To their credit their are some historians that want to discuss all aspects of this period in our history rather than settling on the mainstream historical account.

As my physics teacher used to say:"When you want to believe, go to church." Show that there is a widespread attempt to revise history that is not based on historical evidence. Not too mention that your example is comparing apples and oranges. Your argument is that when two kids fight over a ball, a third, bigger one is justified in taking it from them because they are not nice to each other? And that bigger kid can also take over the soccer field and means of resistance are a justification for brutal violence. I would say those are feeble attempts to revise history to sugarcoat invasion and genocide.
 
Certainly agree with that, particularly when creationism is substituted for science. Most of our history is revisionist, particularly in grade schools. That is because almost all text books are vetted by the self-righteous Texas or Tennessee school boards. Little if anything is printed about the slaughter and horrors of Columbus's expeditions, native American decimation via some of the most vile means, the huge scam that was the first transcontinental railroad, etc.


All, even "factual" histories, are revisionist in the sense they are told by one POV and are biased toward that POV by the omission of other POV's.
 
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Very true, though some factual histories include multiple POVs. I find them the most interesting, particularly if they are based on writings of the time. You still have to draw your own conclusions, which adds one's personal POV to the mix. A good teacher will note this, presenting multiple POVs and encourage discussion and critical thinking.
 
Very true, though some factual histories include multiple POVs. I find them the most interesting, particularly if they are based on writings of the time. You still have to draw your own conclusions, which adds one's personal POV to the mix. A good teacher will note this, presenting multiple POVs and encourage discussion and critical thinking.


Agreed. Read as many POV's as you can so you can corroborate any one of them. Also makes a more complete view.
 
Is that an example of the mutual respect and civility you want to teach your children? They are not even in school but you are already denigrating a whole group of hardworking citizens who for the most part try their best to give kids a good education.

It is an expression of the attitude formed on the observation of their behavior and the environment they've created at schools which is extremely corrosive to open and honest debate with mutual respect. Not being a leftist, it's extremely common that, from the word go, no respect would be afforded to me or those who think like me in the public education system and on a college campus. Beyond the lack of respect, one who does not toe the line of leftist ideology can be confident in the fact that their personal character will be attacked and that they will be ridiculed, belittled, demeaned and ostracized. So as I go forward in raising my children, instilling my values in them, I will warn them that this is the general state of things of the public education system, because it is true.
 
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It is an attitude formed on the observation of their behavior and the environment they've created at schools which is extremely corrosive to open and honest debate with mutual respect. Not being a leftist, it's extremely common that, from the word go, no respect would be afforded to me or those who think like me in the public education system and on a college campus. Beyond the lack of respect one who does not toe the line of leftist ideology can be confident in the fact that their personal character will be attacked and that they ridiculed, belittled, demeaned and ostracized. So as I go forward in raising my children, instilling my values in them, I would tell them that this is the general state of things of the public education system, because it is true.

If I would be a kindergarten teacher and a parent who I never met before comes into my classroom that has the mindset of me being an intolerant, feeble-minded leftist who is there to indoctrinate his children I would have a hard time respecting that person beyond professional courtesy. Let's face it, you show exactly the ridiculing, belittling, demeaning and ostracizing behavior you accuse those liberals for. And you claim that attitude was formed on observation when you have no first hand experience with the behavior or environment in our current schools but purely judge from hearsay and news-channel exaggerations. Even worse, touting those intolerant attitudes, oversimplifications, and generalizations as universal truths. Fortunately, there is hope for your children:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/05/parents-political-beliefs/361462/
 
If I would be a kindergarten teacher and a parent who I never met before comes into my classroom that has the mindset of me being an intolerant, feeble-minded leftist who is there to indoctrinate his children I would have a hard time respecting that person beyond professional courtesy. Let's face it, you show exactly the ridiculing, belittling, demeaning and ostracizing behavior you accuse those liberals for. And you claim that attitude was formed on observation when you have no first hand experience with the behavior or environment in our current schools but purely judge from hearsay and news-channel exaggerations. Even worse, touting those intolerant attitudes, oversimplifications, and generalizations as universal truths. Fortunately, there is hope for your children:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/05/parents-political-beliefs/361462/


With regard to public K -12. Yes my children have not begun that yet but our system is rife with examples of what I'm talking about. I already provided one example. I could provide many more but I doubt you'd ever yield to the evidence.

With regard to college campuses. It is, as I said before, exponentially worse. It was not that long ago that I graduated from college myself. I attended several different colleges and had the occasion for extended visits at dozens of others. I've seen it with my own eyes. To deny it is to deny reality.

That being said I realize that not every last individual involved in the K-12 or in the colleges is like this. But based on all the evidence of outright hostility of the system overall I'm forced to approach it as I do.

Hope for my children? I want my children to be able to think critically for themselves when they become adults and see the world for what is is and I'm fairly confident that if they're capable of this they're views will be similar to my own.

I'm just curious if you have children of your own.
 
There is nothing like pouring the foundation for blaming somebody else for your kids growing up all screwed up. ;lol
 
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