Mission Impossible?

[smallinov]

Hello, been stalking the forum for a while but I am getting close to making the decision purchase and I'd love some input.

I moved into a new house this year and have the following to heat:
3000-3500 SqFt House (Currently heated by natural gas boiler)
1600 SqFt Pool Room (Currently heated by natural gas forced air furnace....lots of windows and ideally you want a pool room heated to 84)
16x40 Indoor Pool (approx 35,000 gallons) (Ideally heated to 82)
880 Sq Ft Garage (not currently heated)
350 Sq Ft Detached Studio (not currently heated)

I feel like from what I have been reading I would be the perfect candidate for a gasification wood burner with lots of storage.

I am in Grand Rapids, MI and part of my problem getting started is that I don't know where to find a reliable contractor to spec out my system and help get it installed.

Also I have about 1.5 acres but since I am in city limits I'm going to need to do this indoors (ideally in a room I have in the garage)

So my questions are as follows:

Am I correct in thinking I could get away with heating all of this by firing a decent sized boiler 2 times a day?
How do I go about finding a reliable contractor in my area?
I'm sure my contractor would be able to help me but based on the numbers I gave above, but approx. what size boiler should I be looking at?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!!

 

[woodsmaster]

You need to do a heat loss calculation to Know for sure, but I'd say that's probably doable. A big garn or 80 - 100 Kw
down-drafter with 2,000 - 3000 gallon storage would likely be good candidates.

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

Check out "Heaterman" on this Boiler room forum.
He is in your neck of the woods so to speak

 

[stee6043]

I was very pleased with the assistance and advice I received from Cozy Heat (who is a sponsor here). They are a bit of a drive from Grand Rapids (2.5 hours north) but I found them to be substantially more knowledgeable than my local guys (H2Oasis) on the higher end boilers.

With a properly sized boiler you should be able to get away with firing once a day. That being said, I bet your heat load is huge. I suspect you're going to be looking at an 80KW boiler if you're looking to keep that pool and pool room heated with wood. And if that is the case my guess is you're going to be looking at 10 cord or more per year to feed this beast. Do you have room for 20 cord of wood on your property? With a gasser you cannot survive without properly seasoned wood. That means you can't cut it down and burn it in the same season. And along those lines do you have access to free wood? Paying for 10 cord per year around here is likely going to cost more than natural gas.

Ohh yeah...and welcome to the forum!

 

[flyingcow]

The house is one thing, but an indoor pool house is going to be another huge. Is this house a brand new build? Or is there a heating history with it? Like how much nat gas has it burned in the past.

Finding a experience installer/designer is important, to say the least. As pointed out, maybe Cozy heat can help with that.

Or "heaterman" with a Garn set up. He's got a lot of experience. He has done some really big installs I believe.

 

[smallinov]

Stee6043 - I might have access to free firewood but more than likely I'd pay to have it delivered. Storing 20 cord of wood is certainly a challenge but I think it can be achieved, you mention 10 cord costing more than natural gas but the natural gas just to heat the house for a month is $500+ and that is keeping the temps down.

flyingcow - It is an older house but it was a foreclosure so the historical cost isn't something I have access to.

 

[willworkforwood]

Do you have prior experience heating with wood, and processing firewood?

 

[smallinov]

Do you have prior experience heating with wood, and processing firewood?

Nope but I am young and dutch so if it saves me $$ I'm down for some work ;-)

 

[kuribo]

I would think that the owner of a home of that size with indoor pool and outbuildings, etc., wouldn't be someone who would have concerns about money....then again, to one wants to throw money away and a wood fueled system may be a more economic choice....perhaps you could insulate the pool and turn it into storage for your system???

 

[DaveBP]

If you are going to be purchasing your fuelwood (as opposed to working your own woodlot) and you're tight for space to stack and dry cordwood, perhaps you should look into a small commercial pellet boiler and bulk delivery (if it is available in your area).
You end up with a vertical silo-looking storage bin which would take a lot less storage area than 20 or more cords.
The pellets are dry by the time they get to you. The importance of dry wood can't be exaggarated.
There may be alternative energy financial assistance loans available. Get them while you can in case there is a change of administration next year in D.C.

I would first hire a heating consultant to do a full energy audit of your place (including a blower door test) to get a close estimate of your real heating loads. Not an installer but someone with no personal interest in what you use to heat with. This will not be cheap but will give you a true evaluation of what you need to do everything you have going on.

 

[smallinov]

I would think that the owner of a home of that size with indoor pool and outbuildings, etc., wouldn't be someone who would have concerns about money....

That said, perhaps you could insulate the pool and turn it into storage for your system.....

You'd be wrong in thinking that, there is a difference between not being able to pay the bills to heat everything and not wanting to ...My situation falls into the latter....I'd prefer a single source of heat rather than running 4+ natural gas heaters at the same time.

 

[smallinov]

If you are going to be purchasing your fuelwood (as opposed to working your own woodlot) and you're tight for space to stack and dry cordwood, perhaps you should look into a small commercial pellet boiler and bulk delivery (if it is available in your area).
You end up with a vertical silo-looking storage bin which would take a lot less storage area than 20 or more cords.
The pellets are dry by the time they get to you. The importance of dry wood can't be exaggarated.
There may be alternative energy financial assistance loans available. Get them while you can in case there is a change of administration next year in D.C.

I would first hire a heating consultant to do a full energy audit of your place (including a blower door test) to get a close estimate of your real heating loads. Not an installer but someone with no personal interest in what you use to heat with. This will not be cheap but will give you a true evaluation of what you need to do everything you have going on.

How would you go about finding someone qualified to do that? A quick search of google brings up a bunch of local heating companies but I'm guessing they are all going to want to sell me on their services instead of giving me an unbiased audit.

 

[DaveBP]

How would you go about finding someone qualified to do that? A quick search of google brings up a bunch of local heating companies but I’m guessing they are all going to want to sell me on their services instead of giving me an unbiased audit.

Check out the Wikipedia entry on "energy audit". It discusses the topic and might give you a good start on a question list for whomever you talk to. I suspect a lot of the guys that do this have an interest in selling you an insulation job. That's OK. You might be interested in that, too. But they will get you the best numbers for a boiler guy to start from to design a system.

A single large natural gas boiler might also be your cheapest option, though. With a pool in the mix you could use a modulating/condensing system that is so efficient that it uses plastic pipe for its exhaust vent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_audit

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

You can look under energy raters for Michigan
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/cis/CIS_EO_Home_Energy_Raters_177249_7.pdf

 

[willworkforwood]

Do you have prior experience heating with wood, and processing firewood?

Nope but I am young and dutch so if it saves me $$ I'm down for some work ;-)

If you buy firewood cut/split/delivered, it will take you MANY years to pay off an installed gasification boiler with storage. OTOH, the more firewood processing you do on your own, the more of your time will be required (i.e. way more than "some work"). If you have significant existing time commitments (young children, long work hours, etc), you might be well off not headed down this road. If you're not fully on-board with the amount of time involved, the boiler might turn into nothing but a giant boat anchor in your lifestyle. That's JMHO - others may disagree. Anyway, I'm headed outside for a couple of hours to bring firewood into the cellar, and do some splitting - just another typical wood processing day. But I'm ok with that ;-)

 

[stee6043]

Stee6043 - I might have access to free firewood but more than likely I'd pay to have it delivered. Storing 20 cord of wood is certainly a challenge but I think it can be achieved, you mention 10 cord costing more than natural gas but the natural gas just to heat the house for a month is $500+ and that is keeping the temps down.

flyingcow - It is an older house but it was a foreclosure so the historical cost isn't something I have access to.

Don't get me wrong, Smalls, I am an advocate of heating with wood even when it doesn't exactly make fiscal sense. As mentioned above the payback on gasser systems is typically long to begin with. And if you're paying for wood it's even longer.

I'd estimate you're going to be $20,000 into a new 80KW system with 1,000+ gallons of storage. If you have room I'd recommend a Garn. If not, I like our EKO's, Tarms, etc with modular storage quite a lot. But back to cost. Let's say you're spending $600 per month for five months per year to heat your home. That's $3,000 per year. Just to pay back the hardware you're looking at 6 years. Assuming you keep the house a LOT warmer, which is an added value, let's call it 4 years payback which is probably being pretty generous.

Now let's say you're paying $1500 per year for cut, split, stacked hardwood (which is likely low if you need it delivered to GR). Now your payback jumps to 13 years, let's call it 10 for the super warm value-add. There are very few, if any, investments that would be considered worthwhile if they have a 10 or more year ROI.

So now you see where I was coming from. All just guestimates but I do have some experience. My system cost me $14k several years ago and my payback was right around the 5 year mark if I don't adjust for the 7-10 degrees warmer I keep the house now. But as I tell anyone who will listen - if I paid myself minimum wage for the time I spend processing firewood this whole wood heating thing would never in a million years pay for itself. But I actually enjoy dropping trees, hauling, splitting and stacking wood. I sit behind a computer in an office all day long. This is part of the reason I could live with an extended payback in my case. I knew overall heating with wood would be a very healthy thing for me to do. And it's turned out to be very positive.

Having a trailer, saw and proper gear is all extra cost that most people won't consider if you don't already have them. I borrowed a trailer my first year and quickly learned that was not going to work. None of my payback calc's included a $2300 trailer....but alas I "had to" have one.

For what it's worth I heat 3200 sq. ft. with 3-4 cord from late October through March +/-. I live on .75 acre in a standard subdivision and find that storing 8 cord is about as much as I can comfortably do. I've never paid for fire wood and never plan to.

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

Hello, been stalking the forum for a while but I am getting close to making the decision purchase and I'd love some input.

I moved into a new house this year and have the following to heat:
3000-3500 SqFt House (Currently heated by natural gas boiler)
1600 SqFt Pool Room (Currently heated by natural gas forced air furnace....lots of windows and ideally you want a pool room heated to 84)
16x40 Indoor Pool (approx 35,000 gallons) (Ideally heated to 82)
880 Sq Ft Garage (not currently heated)
350 Sq Ft Detached Studio (not currently heated)

I feel like from what I have been reading I would be the perfect candidate for a gasification wood burner with lots of storage.

I am in Grand Rapids, MI and part of my problem getting started is that I don't know where to find a reliable contractor to spec out my system and help get it installed.

Also I have about 1.5 acres but since I am in city limits I'm going to need to do this indoors (ideally in a room I have in the garage)

So my questions are as follows:

Am I correct in thinking I could get away with heating all of this by firing a decent sized boiler 2 times a day?
How do I go about finding a reliable contractor in my area?
I'm sure my contractor would be able to help me but based on the numbers I gave above, but approx. what size boiler should I be looking at?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!!

Sounds like a job for a Garn 2000. Will fire at 400,000 btu area with 2000 gallons of built in storage. With no need for a chimney, separate tanks, this might also be the cheapest way out, Randy

 

[heaterman]

DUTCH Another member of the chosen race! SWEET!

Send me a PM and let me know where you are at.

 

[heaterman]

Seriously.

I'm north of you in the Cadillac area and I get down to the GR/Lansing area in my travels on a regular basis. I'm sure I could do a computer generated heat loss for you no problem for a very low fee if I can get you in my travel schedule and do it without making a special trip. I also know a couple really good boiler guys in the GR area that could assist with both control and piping no matter what you go with. I work with what you are contemplating every day and will be downstate on the 5th of February to meet a customer with 80,000 sq ft in three buildings he wants heated with wood. Maybe I could catch you coming or going to that jobsite.

 

[leaddog]

Hello, been stalking the forum for a while but I am getting close to making the decision purchase and I'd love some input.

I moved into a new house this year and have the following to heat:
3000-3500 SqFt House (Currently heated by natural gas boiler)
1600 SqFt Pool Room (Currently heated by natural gas forced air furnace....lots of windows and ideally you want a pool room heated to 84)
16x40 Indoor Pool (approx 35,000 gallons) (Ideally heated to 82)
880 Sq Ft Garage (not currently heated)
350 Sq Ft Detached Studio (not currently heated)

I feel like from what I have been reading I would be the perfect candidate for a gasification wood burner with lots of storage.

I am in Grand Rapids, MI and part of my problem getting started is that I don't know where to find a reliable contractor to spec out my system and help get it installed.

Also I have about 1.5 acres but since I am in city limits I'm going to need to do this indoors (ideally in a room I have in the garage)

So my questions are as follows:

Am I correct in thinking I could get away with heating all of this by firing a decent sized boiler 2 times a day?
How do I go about finding a reliable contractor in my area?
I'm sure my contractor would be able to help me but based on the numbers I gave above, but approx. what size boiler should I be looking at?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!!

In reading your situation I agree that a Garn might be the way to go. They are a very good and easy unit. Do get with Heaterman. He won't high pressure you and will give you some good advise nomatter what you do.
As far as wood here in michigan it can be gotten for as cheap as $100 a cord cut and split if you look around. I'm about 50 miles from you and had oak delivered last spring for $100 in 3 cord loads. And they were over 3 cords, really. So if you have a way to haul I know you can get it. It might cost a small amount to have it hauled. That said I really enjoy cutting my wood and that is alot of satifation knowing that I'm heatting my house with out using the gas man. BUT the other side of the coin is NG is quite cheap and you might be better off installing a large ng boiler. Either way Heaterman will be able to steer you in the right direction after talking and looking at your situation. He might charge a small fee (he is in business and needs to make a living) but I know him and he has alot of knowledge and has always been ONE of the most helpful people here. There isn't alot of people in Michigan that understand REAL wood burning.
leaddog

 

[katman]

Take Heaterman up on his offer to do a heat loss for you. That will give you the baseline for selecting a unit that can produce the BTUs you need, regardless of the type or burner. Since you are interested in heating through both hot air and pipes, and you would have to buy and store firewood, there is another consideration: do you want to carry firewood around and deal with the inevitable cleanup or do you want something a bit more automated? If the latter, look into some sort of pellet boiler. A pellet boiler can be tied into you existing pipes and you can use a heat exchanger with your air handler. You won't have to load it every day and it can be set up so you can keep your natural gas as backup. Plus, if you are not interested in water storage, there are units that work just like a gas or oil boiler. I'm completing the install of a Harman PB 105 now, but I seriously considered pellet guns, including one that could be used in a gasifier if I wanted the option to switch between cordwood and pellets. I really liked that option, but after many years of cutting my own wood and using a wood stove, I decided I'm not going to start cutting and splitting wood again so I might as well buy pellets.

 

[goosegunner]

I wish Heaterman was in Wisconsin. We could use someone around here that knows boilers. I have yet to find that person.

Gg

 

[Tennman]

Yeah HM!.... When the heck you gonna get to Tennessee too?? Ditto all said above about HM.

 

[stee6043]

I wonder if we scared him off. Way to go guys. ha.

 

[bpirger]

I'll third both the concerns about working with wood, and with your loads, quite a lot of wood! And also Heaterman. Nearly all of us are just DIYer's around here that enjoy the independence and tinkering. Heaterman does this stuff for a living as well, and he knows his stuff cold (or is it hot!).

I think a Garn would suit your needs well, though depending on your load, you might not got a whole lot of time out of storage. Doesn't sound to me like you'll be one fire a day like most of us Garn owners.

Natural gas should remain fairly cheap with all the shale gas formations being tapped....at the expense of clean water, perhaps, but that's another story too. I've known people who installed the woodstove and burned only a couple of years, becuase they didn't like the work. Even with the wood dropped in the front yard.... Most of us get our own, and enjoy it, so you are talking to perhaps an "odd" bunch. At least I know I am.