Looks like CA drew the line on ICE engines 2035

[Ashful]

Geez.... and I used to trick my buddies into sniffing from the gallon jugs of ammonia dad kept next to the blueprint machine, as a teenager. Maybe I need to track them down, and apologize.

Get your kids to study electrical engineering....

I get invitations to apply to various engineering manager roles thru LinkedIn, and even though my specialty is not even remotely related to BEV's, a large fraction of the notifications I receive are for positions at companies related to BEV development. It's an indicator, with my experience so clearly NOT in this market and still clearly receiving so many solicitations, that there must be explosive growth happening in this sector.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Last week CA wanted to stop selling gas powered vehicles. This week they asked folks not to charge their EVs.

Californians told not to charge EVs as grid struggles in heat wave

Californians were told Wednesday not to charge their electric vehicles during peak hours, just days after the state said it would stop selling gas-powered cars, as the aging electricity grid struggles with a fearsome heatwave.

techxplore.com

 

[stoveliker]

Lol. I do see there, however, that plug in hybrids would not be banned from burning fossil fuels.

 

[ABMax24]

Canada set a similar target a while back, only ZEV's (zero emission vehicles) to be sold after 2035.

Which when taken at face value, the mandate receives applause from one group, and anger from another.

Now when one looks at the definition of a ZEV in Canada it means "the vehicle has the capability to be zero emission". Which allows a plug-in hybrid to qualify, even if it is never plugged in. Now the anger and applause switch groups.

 

[EbS-P]

Last week CA wanted to stop selling gas powered vehicles. This week they asked folks not to charge their EVs.

Californians told not to charge EVs as grid struggles in heat wave

Californians were told Wednesday not to charge their electric vehicles during peak hours, just days after the state said it would stop selling gas-powered cars, as the aging electricity grid struggles with a fearsome heatwave.

techxplore.com

Once there is a bi directional standard they will be asked to plug-in. On a related note. All my charging for the past 6 months has taken place between midnight and 6 AM. Hardly peak usage period even during heat waves.

 

[woodgeek]

Last week CA wanted to stop selling gas powered vehicles. This week they asked folks not to charge their EVs.

Californians told not to charge EVs as grid struggles in heat wave

Californians were told Wednesday not to charge their electric vehicles during peak hours, just days after the state said it would stop selling gas-powered cars, as the aging electricity grid struggles with a fearsome heatwave.

techxplore.com

The headline is very misleading, and the story went viral in conservative media, that loves a 'Those Californians be Crazy' story. I'm sure there will be another story next week like 'Californians forcing kids to eat vegetables!'.

Reading the story, they are asking people to not charge their EVs between 4 and 9 PM, during an epic Heat Wave. About as difficult as telling ICE owners not to go to the gas station on every other Tuesday.

Of course, many of those EV owners are already doing that, bc they are getting a big electricity discount by doing TOU rates, and charging overnight.

I'm not on TOU myself, but I set my EV to only charge during the local low demand period (midnight to 6AM) when I am home. That helps my utility out (reducing purchases from expensive peaker plants), and means most of my electrons are nuke baseload.

 

[woodgeek]

Canada set a similar target a while back, only ZEV's (zero emission vehicles) to be sold after 2035.

Which when taken at face value, the mandate receives applause from one group, and anger from another.

Now when one looks at the definition of a ZEV in Canada it means "the vehicle has the capability to be zero emission". Which allows a plug-in hybrid to qualify, even if it is never plugged in. Now the anger and applause switch groups.

Apparently, several EU countries governments passed a mandate a few years ago that all state vehicles would have to be PHEV or BEV. Previously, all state employees (who often got cars as a job perk) got a gas card that they could use at any gas station. After the plug-in mandate passed, they kept handing out the gas cards, and did not make any provision for reimbursing the employees for home charging kWh.

The result was predictable... a massive increase in the adoption of PHEVs in those countries, with a teeny tiny fraction of electric miles.

Those crazy Europeans!

 

[EatenByLimestone]

The headline is very misleading, and the story went viral in conservative media, that loves a 'Those Californians be Crazy' story. I'm sure there will be another story next week like 'Californians forcing kids to eat vegetables!'.

Reading the story, they are asking people to not charge their EVs between 4 and 9 PM, during an epic Heat Wave. About as difficult as telling ICE owners not to go to the gas station on every other Tuesday.

Of course, many of those EV owners are already doing that, bc they are getting a big electricity discount by doing TOU rates, and charging overnight.

I'm not on TOU myself, but I set my EV to only charge during the local low demand period (midnight to 6AM) when I am home. That helps my utility out (reducing purchases from expensive peaker plants), and means most of my electrons are nuke baseload.

So you see no cause for concern regarding the timing of these two stories?

 

[SpaceBus]

So you see no cause for concern regarding the timing of these two stories?

Yes, the climate is warming and even without the EV's the grid would be struggling. However, continuing business as usual without transitioning to less carbon intensive technology will be much worse than having to charge your car at night. It is frustrating when every attempt to make things better is answered by some nonsense from the fossil fuel industry.

 

[peakbagger]

I plug in my Prime when I want to as my utility is uninterested in offering incentives to change my behavior. I expect most other people do the same.

Look into Freakonomics, if there are incentives whether hidden or not it will change people's behavior. An example, I pay my credit card bills on line after I have reviewed them. When I log on there is usually a splash screen trying to get me to go to online billing, its usually set up that unless I opt out I will switch to online billing and they will no longer send me a bill by mail. On rare occasions I may miss the email or not make an electronic payment as I need to look up a dispute so the paperbill is a reminder. Thus I am incentivized to keep getting paper statements as the credit card company charges a very hefty fee if I miss a payment. They do not send electronic reminders. So I am incentivized to keep getting a paper statement. My guess is it costs the credit card company to print, issue, send and then process those statements so why not incentivize me somehow to elect not to receive them? Same with my utility, give me an incentive to plug in off peak and I may do so. I can get a Toyota ap to do so where I plug in the car and I can schedule when to charge but I have to pay a monthly fee to have the Toyota ap.

The problem is the utilities tend to be uninterested at the least or hostile to putting in place systems to reduce power usage as they typically get paid based on the volume of power used by customers. Its not just the utilities fault, state regulators make changing tariffs very painful so the utilities try not to make changes.

Since deregulation in most states, the utilities do not generate the power, they only transport it, they do not make money on generation, so they make money on distribution. I know in my area the local electric co-ops tend to be far more progressive towards energy conservation than the big multi-nationally owned electric companies.

 

[stoveliker]

The point was that the headline is deceiving, because they did not ask EV owners to stop charging. They asked them to charge at certain times of the day (or, more accurately, not at certain times of the day).

The headline suggests a blanket "don't do it", and the real question was "don't do it between the hrs of x-y".

It's like passing a noise ordinance and the headline says "XY told home owners not to make noise!" when the ordinance only says "... between 10 pm and 6 am."

This is how media creates an image, a bias, and is not (the truth), the WHOLE truth, (and nothing but the truth).

 

[Ashful]

So you see no cause for concern regarding the timing of these two stories?

No. Even this evil middle-aged male Republican capitalist can see the headline on that story is an obvious attempt to mislead.

More grid-tied battery is exactly where we need to be going, with better management of charging profiles, and a sensible bi-directional standard (as @EbS-P already noted). Even without bi-directionality, just managing charging times would be an enormous benefit, with regard to reducing peak/average ratio. Anything we can do to level out demand over a 24 hour cycle (or preferably 72 hour cycle) will allow those nukes to throttle up to a new base load, in addition to other options with long time constants or poor on-demand control.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

How else can you guys modify your behavior in order to make somebody’s bad decisions less disruptive?

Maybe figuring out that battery thing before cutting out the ICE might have been a good idea?

As somebody who manages a small fleet I’m real interested in electric vehicles. I’d love to cut down on vehicle maintenance. It’s just not time for it yet. If your grid can’t take the load, maybe you shouldn’t push more people onto it.

 

[Ashful]

I suspect you've never driven an EV, Limestone? For me, the cost is still an issue, but in what other way do you see this transition legitimately disrupting your life or business?

I'm so addicted to gasoline and horsepower, that my family suspects my blood runs around 102 octane, but even I can see how much better EV's will be for all but those of us addicted to the sweet roar of Flowmaster.

Someday, you're going to feel real sheepish, trying to explain to your grandkids, that you thought it was easier to drive across town and stand next to a gas pump for 10 minutes in the cold and rain, than to just plug your car into the wall when you get home at night.

 

[stoveliker]

I think this (pushing EVs at this time) is needed because (of many things, including that) this country is not known for its foresight in getting the right infrastructure in place BEFORE there is a current need. No one wants to pay for these things, many will say "but there are no EVs, and I don't think they'll become that big anyway".

Making the need current is the only way to get it done imo.

Getting the right infrastructure in place before there is a current need: case in point, bridges, drinking water, sewer. None of that is adequately maintained ("right infrastructure -kept- in place") until the excrement hits the airmovement device and the need is current.

 

[EbS-P]

UMaine asked us to work from home one day and ran the big backup generators for a few hours. It wasn’t a a big deal. Just like not running your dryer during peak usage or Turning up the thermostat a couple degrees for a few hours. It’s not the cars. It’s the AC. But the cars can load shift. AC not so much.

 

[EbS-P]

How else can you guys modify your behavior in order to make somebody’s bad decisions less disruptive?

Maybe figuring out that battery thing before cutting out the ICE might have been a good idea?

As somebody who manages a small fleet I’m real interested in electric vehicles. I’d love to cut down on vehicle maintenance. It’s just not time for it yet. If your grid can’t take the load, maybe you shouldn’t push more people onto it.

Grid has not been designed to take record loads. Hence all the rolling blackouts before EVs were even a thing. Now we can utilize them to keep the grid up.

 

[begreen]

The grid has been designed for central distribution. It needs to be updated to accommodate a distributed approach. For now, they need to keep the nukes for baseload power until a better alternative is developed.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Grid has not been designed to take record loads. Hence all the rolling blackouts before EVs were even a thing. Now we can utilize them to keep the grid up.

Are you suggesting we use car batteries to support the grid by letting them draw from your battery, or are you suggesting the power company could charge your car for free and you can help them by allowing them to run a higher baseload? Both scenarios pose their own issues.. Batteries have a finite number of charges and discharges that they can absorb. I wouldn't want an uncaring entity discharging, or charging my vehicle.

 

[stoveliker]

This is one of the concerns that have always been in the back of my mind: my battery does not have eternal life. Having the grid charge and discharge it at their preference is something I'd be hesitant about.

I understand this may help stabilize things, but when my equipment ages sooner because of that, I would think that better (larger scale) batteries are a better solution.

I'm fine postponing charging (etc, as in CA now).

 

[begreen]

In the early 1900s there were tales and cartoons of the farmer rescuing an early gas-powered car with his horse. Gas infrastructure was spotty back then, and so were paved roads. This is where we are now with EVs except we have ubiquitous power. In CA if you have a good-sized solar array I wouldn't feel guilty about charging during the daytime.

Battery technology is dramatically improving and will continue to do so. Faster charging and improved life-cycle will happen. And eventually, it may make more sense to lease the battery than own it.
On the battery development front, I thought this was interesting.

A Researcher Accidentally Developed A Battery That Could Last A Lifetime

A Researcher Accidentally Developed A Battery That Could Last A Lifetime

www.iflscience.com

The article is short on details on what kind of output this tech is capable of and its costs. It may be too early. The question with any new battery tech is "will it scale?"

 

[stoveliker]

leasing is nice, indeed. Though it depends on how they set the lease price.
Per kWh charged? not good for grid storage cycles.
Per mile driven or per year? Better.

On the other hand, as long as EVs are used *to not drive ICE* vehicles, then shortening the lifetime by more cycling of the battery offsets some of that CO2 reduction (because the CO2 cost of production is spread out over less miles). Admittedly, some CO2 reduction from powering the grid would be present to offset that offset. Though given scale, I think that's not going to be enough.

 

[stoveliker]

Those batteries are MnO2 based. Not really what's needed for cars, as far as I understand.
Also the structure factor here adds a ton of volume (so the energy density per volume is low). Thin MnO2 films on gold nanowires. Not sure what the cost of the Au nanowires would do.

It'd be good if this concept could be reworked to other chemistries.

 

[EbS-P]

We have load interruption devices on our AC compressors. Duke get to say when they cut the power to them, but there are rules on how often and how long. In return we get a 25$ credit every year. Seems like something similar would work for cars. And then on could make this a two way system. It doesn’t happen often. I can’t remember the last time they needed to use them. It’s been several years.

As for drawing from my battery sure for I would let them draw 20 kWh a day but they would have to pay me a premium. Spot power prices or 25$ a year which ever is higher.

Rough math says 20k$ battery pack that last 20 years. Would cost about 3$ a day a double it say 6$ is what the utility would need to pay me. Say they take 30 kWh a day. Or 0.50$ a kWh. 10 days a year. Sure I would sign up today IF they subsidized the house side hardware and I could use it when I needed it locally.

 

[peakbagger]

Those batteries are MnO2 based. Not really what's needed for cars, as far as I understand.
Also the structure factor here adds a ton of volume (so the energy density per volume is low). Thin MnO2 films on gold nanowires. Not sure what the cost of the Au nanowires would do.

It'd be good if this concept could be reworked to other chemistries.

New battery technology concepts are a dime a dozen and fortunes can be made just on a hint of a new one. I suspect that something other than the current LNC batteries are going to appear but I am not betting my retirement funds on any of them.

With respect to large batteries, there are several companies that are leasing them to building owners and that approach is being tried in China with one brand of EV autos that uses a swappable battery pack. The leasing companies are betting that there is residual value at end of the lease.

Battery degradation is pretty complex, its not just the number of cycles its the rate of discharge and depth of discharge. Most of the power demand on the grid is not an overall shortage of generation over a long period, its the less than 5 minute market where there is short term imbalance between supply and demand that needs to be met near instantly. Therefore in many cases the home battery aggregator is going to pull down the batteries for only five minutes. Folks may not realize it, but a typical grid tied solar installation is limited at the main panel for power output to 20% of the panel rating. For a 200 amp panel that is 40 AMPS at 240 volts or 9600 watt hours. A line side tap can put out considerably more, but few homes are currently wired that way (but could be).