woodgeek said:Mike,
Yup, there's a reason they have terra-cotta tiles in all those millions of chimneys....
Personally, I wouldn't consider 24/7 (that is, unattended) burning of wood OR coal in an
unlisted, unmarked stove in an uninspected chimney. Also, I remember reports on
this forum of non-SS stovepipe in chimneys corroding out in quite short order (due to higher
temps and moisture than what its intended for). Don't go there.
If you're moving, then you're not gonna invest in anything you have to leave behind (including
inspections)...
I think your best bet is to:
sell off/scrap the old stove,
sell the wood to someone who'll season it and burn it next year,
eat your heating bill for this season (FYI, electric heat is much more expensive than other sources,
including your current heat pump)
put together a cheap but _code_ install after you relocate, if you're still interested.
If you decide at that point you're a coal guy, then check out:
http://www.nepadigital.com/bb/index.php
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/12092/
woodgeek said:Mike,
I don't.
There was a thread here that it is generally safe to burn wood in a coal burner (provided you
accept needing to clean the flue regularly, and a possible loss of efficiency), but not coal
in a wood burner. The major advice is to shut off the 'under air' or let ashes fill up under the
grate.
The major difference wood/coal is that wood is easier to light, then burns at a lower temp,
burns up faster releasing less total heat, and has the potential to gunk your flue, esp. if you
burn cool, or in a non-EPA stove.
Most of the venting/install code for wood is more stringent than for coal not because creosote
is super dangerous like radioactive waste or something, but in an attempt to 'idiot-proof' the
system against the guy who will burn a creosote factory (wet wood/smolder) for years and never
think to get it cleaned out. The code thus requires every system be able to survive the worst
possible creosote chimney fire, that might have buckets of hardened creosote fuel.
I burn wood for green reasons, and b/c I've got a bunch of downed trees (mostly ash) in my yard
(probably 2-3 cords worth), which I can cut up for free, and which would otherwise rot. I also
don't have place to stash a couple ton of coal, nor do I feel like shoveling coal over the white
carpet in my family room!
Gooserider said:The only thing those cleaner logs are really good for is cleaning the excess cash out of your wallet... However you are basically correct - IF you keep your chimney cleaned on a regular basis, IF you tend to burn in a way that minimizes creosote buildup, and otherwise play the "good doobie" in regards to your maintainance, the odds of you having problems with a slammer install are pretty low.
But in practice, few people consistently do that stuff reliably and well, so there have been lots of problems due to slammer installs, including chimney and house fires, CO poisonings, etc.
The basic issue is that almost any sort of half-@$$ed install can work OK as long as everything goes right - all of todays more stringent requirements are not really there to deal with the effects of day-to-day operation, your slammer install is "good enough" for that, sort of, it may not work well, but it will work.... However if anything goes wrong, your safety margin with a slammer is slim to none - old installation techniques that used to be legal and common don't get outlawed by codes because they don't "work" but because some people that used them DIED.... Murphy is not just a funny lawmaker, he's also a deadly killer!
So how much is your life and that of your family worth to you? Are you willing to put them at risk to save a few bucks? That is what the whole situation boils down to - we will do all we can to help you get a SAFE and legal install, but we won't help you put yourself and your family at risk by telling you to do something that experience has shown to be potentially deadly.
Gooserider
berlin said:yes, coal of any type will produce NO flamable creosote in the chimney. Since you're very close to north eastern pennsylvania where some of the best anthricite coal in the world is located at very low prices, i would HIGHLY suggest looking into a coal burning appliance. there is a coal heating website on the net, www.nepadigital.com that site is very informative and usefull for anyone looking into anthricite coal heat.
mikew said:Hey Gooserider
Thanks for all the info, I understand all the code stuff and if this was my house that I was going to live in for years I would do the whole thing to code, I was just wondering how you could get a fire if you cleaned the chimney and keprt it clean, mostly likely I am going to remove the stove and sell it but I still might burn in the fireplace just to knock of the chill on the coldest nights, if I remove the stove and clean the chimney and keep an eye on it I figure it should be good for 3 more months, the landlord said it was fine to burn in the fireplace but I don't want insurance problems if something happens, as long as I'm using the fireplace the way it was designed the stove guy said I would be ok insurance wise. I'm an electrical and general contractor and if somebody came to me and asked if they could share the 30 amp breaker to run a dryer and a small cabinet range off a switched box only using one at a time would it work? I would say no way , thats totally against code you have to have each appliance on its own breaker but in reality if that hook up was in my own house and I was using it ,it would work fine so I understand the saftey feature of codes and why they come about but like you say if somebody was willing to keep the flue clean and burn nice wood most likely there would be no fire especially if the flue clay is in tact. Also how often do you guys clean your chimney, my friend only cleaned his once a year is that enough to keep a fire out. heres another question, I saw on the log cleaning site that they are approved by csia and sometimes sweeps have to use them before cleaning to get the tuff creosote off, I thought they were used that way?
Gooserider said:mikew said:Hey Gooserider
Thanks for all the info, I understand all the code stuff and if this was my house that I was going to live in for years I would do the whole thing to code, I was just wondering how you could get a fire if you cleaned the chimney and keprt it clean, mostly likely I am going to remove the stove and sell it but I still might burn in the fireplace just to knock of the chill on the coldest nights, if I remove the stove and clean the chimney and keep an eye on it I figure it should be good for 3 more months, the landlord said it was fine to burn in the fireplace but I don't want insurance problems if something happens, as long as I'm using the fireplace the way it was designed the stove guy said I would be ok insurance wise. I'm an electrical and general contractor and if somebody came to me and asked if they could share the 30 amp breaker to run a dryer and a small cabinet range off a switched box only using one at a time would it work? I would say no way , thats totally against code you have to have each appliance on its own breaker but in reality if that hook up was in my own house and I was using it ,it would work fine so I understand the saftey feature of codes and why they come about but like you say if somebody was willing to keep the flue clean and burn nice wood most likely there would be no fire especially if the flue clay is in tact. Also how often do you guys clean your chimney, my friend only cleaned his once a year is that enough to keep a fire out. heres another question, I saw on the log cleaning site that they are approved by csia and sometimes sweeps have to use them before cleaning to get the tuff creosote off, I thought they were used that way?
If you keep the chimney mechanically brushed - no "magick powders" or other chemical stuff then you should be reasonably safe - especially running as a regular fireplace since those aren't heavy creosote producers. - however they also tend not to be good heat producers, many times they may warm the immediate area, but cause a net loss for heating the house overall.
On the insurance issue, I would agree, if the landlord said it was OK to use the fireplace, and you are using it as constructed, then you shouldn't have any issues.
Sounds like you get what we are saying about code and safety - just like you can't trust a customer to safely use the electrical setup you described, we can't say you'd be OK doing the slammer...
As to the frequency of chimney cleaning, it varies, with my old smoke dragon I did it a couple times a season, could have done more. This is my first season using an EPA stove, I'm expecting that I won't need to until after burning season is over, and probably not be that bad then. - Most of the EPA stove owners here report that they clean once or twice a year at most, and don't get much crud when they do.
However the slammer era stoves were often burned in a very low fire "smolder mode" in order to get long burn-times - which was a surefire recipe for making creosote, and thus led to a rapid buildup and subsequent fires when the stove was run hot later.
On the log site - I don't know just what CSIA standards are, but I'd be willing to bet that they are more on the order of "it won't do harm" as opposed to "it really works" - ditto the case of findng a few sweeps that will reccomend them, and possibly use them (and bill accordingly) whether they are actually "needed" or not - I would put it in the same class as those adds for sugar free gum that talk about "reccomended by dentists" - or equivalent. There are people that swear by the logs, but I have never seen any evidence provided by what I would consider a reliable, unbiased source that they actually DO any real good, especially outside of special cases. Especially, they may change the nature of the creosote deposits, but they do NOT remove them the same way that a chimney brush does... Even in the "used by sweeps" case that you mention, they may have loosened the creosote with the log, but then they mechanically brushed the chimney to remove it.
Gooserider
CSIA's Chemical Cleaners Position
The Chimney Safety Institute of America (CSIA), a non-profit, educational institution focused on the prevention of chimney and venting hazards, is concerned about the consumer use of chemical chimney cleaning products to the exclusion of conventional chimney inspections and cleaning. These products often are promoted for their ability to remove a portion of the creosote from a masonry or metal chimney interior through catalytic action when burned in a fireplace or wood stove. The CSIA believes that the use of these products alone is not an adequate substitute for mechanical chimney cleaning and inspection because it does not provide the same level of protection to the chimney system. Current promotional claims for some of the products may be creating a false sense of security among consumers.
It is the consensus of qualified experts that chimney maintenance is best achieved through annual inspections, and mechanical sweeping, by trained professional chimney sweeps as frequently as needed. Chimney inspections often reveal hidden problems with a chimney structure that could be potentially hazardous. Mechanical sweeping of chimneys not only removes layers of creosote from the chimney surface, it removes the resulting loose soot and creosote from the chimney, fireplace, or wood stove. A substantial percentage of fireplace and wood stove chimneys do not provide a straight path from the firebox to the outside. If chemical chimney cleaning products perform as claimed and cause debris in the chimney to fall, that debris still needs to be removed from the smoke shelf, baffle, catalytic combustor, or offset in order to ensure a properly functioning chimney.
Chemical products that claim to clean or assist in cleaning chimneys are not new. Indeed some of these chemical products are used successfully by professional chimney sweeps in conjunction with the mechanical cleaning of a chimney. In some situations a chimney can develop a hard or tacky layer of creosote in the chimney that cannot be removed by normal mechanical brushing. Under the supervision of a qualified chimney professional certain chemical cleaners may be used to change the chemical composition of the hard or tacky layer of creosote into a brittle or powdery condition to facilitate its removal.
CSIA believes that the optimal method for cleaning a chimney is by a mechanical brushing of the chimney in conjunction with a complete evaluation of the system by a qualified chimney professional. The CSIA and the National Fire Protection Association recommend annual inspections.
For more information about chimney safety or to respond to this bulletin, call Melissa Heeke, CSIA Director of Communications & Marketing at (317) 837-5362 or visit www.csia.org. CSIA is a non-profit, educational organization focused on the prevention of chimney and venting hazards.
Adopted: November 2001
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