liner installation confusion

[begreen]

By code, insulation is now required if the chimney was installed with the required 2" combustibles clearance (interior) or 1" (exterior). Problem is that they rarely are. There are some folks that have skipped the insulation due to similar circumstances.

 

[ptman]

By code, insulation is now required if the chimney was installed with the required 2" combustibles clearance (interior) or 1" (exterior). Problem is that they rarely are. There are some folks that have skipped the insulation due to similar circumstances.

This may be a really dumb question but are there any combustibles in an exterior masonry chimney? It's just bricks and mortar . There isn't any wood framing in the chimney. At least I don't think there is. If there is no wood framing, then what is in it that is combustible?

 

[begreen]

The chimney is supposed to have a 1" gap from the building structure. Is this a brick building?

 

[ptman]

No, it's a wood frame house but with brick outside. That answers my question about the required insulation though. Thank you. It still amazes me that the installers around here don't do the insulation if it is code

 

[bholler]

No, it's a wood frame house but with brick outside. That answers my question about the required insulation though. Thank you. It still amazes me that the installers around here don't do the insulation if it is code

Just because your house has a brick exterior does not mean clearance requirements are met you can still easily have combustibles without the required clearance. In addition for a liner on a wood stove you need to use insulation to achieve the ul-1777 listing. And installing that liner to its ul listing is required by code.

 

[bholler]

And no breaking out the tiles or using ovalized pipe will not double the price not even close

 

[ptman]

thanks for the info. i've watched a few youtube videos on it and it doesnt seem too bad, just a mess to clean up. ill have to check into the oval pipe more and see what works best. is 1 better than the other, as far as breaking out the tiles vs using oval pipe? after deciding on the insert we want and the cost of the liner, im about maxed out on what i want to spend on this (and what will make it an acceptable amount for my wife) so i guess im back to more research. i sure am glad i went up there and checked things out myself before i bought everything. i came really close to going ahead and buying the insert last weekend when we went to look at it.

 

[begreen]

No need for heat now. Take your time and plan this out. It will be more affordable and satisfying if all can go according to plan.

 

[quotejso]

how tall is the chimney maybe could get away with a 5.5 inch round liner?

 

[bholler]

how tall is the chimney maybe could get away with a 5.5 inch round liner?

If their clay is 6.5" inside going to 5.5" wont work still not enough room

 

[ptman]

the chimney is 25'. we are wanting to get the hearthstone clydesdale. i've looked through the manual and it doesnt say anything about a 5.5. it only says a 6" flue is necessary. i feel like im a little stuck b/c the "experts" around here are telling me that the insulation isnt necessary and they didnt even say anything about the possibility of needing to break out the tiles. but after seeing what the actual dimensions are, i dont see anyway a 6" liner would even fit w/o damaging it.

 

[bholler]

i feel like im a little stuck b/c the "experts" around here are telling me that the insulation isnt necessary

I know many pros (in my experience mostly stove shops) claim there is no need for insulation. But if you look at the codes regarding it it is pretty clearly required. And regardless of code it makes the install work allot better so we would do it anyway. In general those that don't do it are simply trying to make the sale by keeping the price down or trying to get more liners in in a day and make more money.

 

[ptman]

can anyone give me any pointers on removing the liners? i've found one site that will let you rent the tile buster and the rods. that tile buster looks like a chain w/ a weight on the end that spins to knock out the liners. are those heavy duty rods necessary? i can probably get a friend of mine to weld something up but im not sure what i would do for the rods.

 

[bholler]

can anyone give me any pointers on removing the liners?

Honestly i would not recommend that it be done diy. It is really easy to seriously damage your chimney structure and also really easy to get seriously hurt. I would say if you are planing on diy I would use oval.

are those heavy duty rods necessary?

Yes they are there is a lot of force placed on them and they need to be able to take it and also absorb some of that force so your body isn't absorbing all of it.

 

[ptman]

i will have to contact one of the stove shop where i was going to purchase the insert and ask them on a price to remove the tiles then. we may either have to look at a cheaper insert or just scrap the idea of wood totally. most people are telling me that gas would do better at resale anyway and my wife would prefer that. im trying to keep the dream alive but its starting to fade . thanks for all the advice on here

 

[bholler]

i will have to contact one of the stove shop where i was going to purchase the insert and ask them on a price to remove the tiles then.

If you are concerned about resale do the ovalized pipe. By doing that the install could easily be reversed at a later time. While if you break out tiles going back to a open fireplace while still possible is much harder and more expensive. That is why we rarely break out tiles for insert installs. Also I would ask sweeps for quotes for the install also. They generally are coming at it from a different point of view.

 

[ptman]

as far as resale goes, i was talking about gas vs wood. ng is cheap here and most people prefer that compared to wood due to less mess, work, etc. i had 2 sweeps come look at the chimney and they both said it was good to go w/ no mention of the flue being too small which doesnt really give me much confidence in them coming out and doing things the right way. one of the sweeps even said that he wouldnt do the insulation except the first 5' or so and the last 5' or so b/c it was too much of a pain and it wasnt necessary. the guy at the stove shop seemed to be the most reasonable about the installation but he is 1 1/2 hrs away so not sure he will want to tackle all this.

 

[bholler]

as far as resale goes, i was talking about gas vs wood. ng is cheap here and most people prefer that compared to wood due to less mess, work, etc.

But keeping options open is always better for resale. If those where the results you got i would recommend getting more quotes.

 

[ptman]

that is a good point. the problem is that i have called all the sweeps in a 45 min radius of me (2), everyone else will be 1 to 1 1/2 hrs away and im not sure they will come up for that. ill have to do some more checking

 

[bholler]

we regularly go 1 hour for a job. i would try calling them

 

[TedyOH]

I skipped the liner insulation when I installed my liner, 1 reason being only 1/4 of the chimney is exterior exposed, second reason(s) / I used common sense (maybe scary) thinking a chimney fire would have to burn for about 10 hours straight for the hot liner to heat clay tile, then heat the red brick then heat the cinder block that surrounds the red brick and clay tile, then that has to be hot enough to ignite a stud thats 14 to 16" from the cinder block that runs all the way to the roof in the atic..... not happening in my world......but your situation is different, especially if you have to remove the tile and I'm guessing your chimney isn't enclosed in cinder block to the roof - I think my flue was 8 x 8, liner went down ok until the last 2 foot - had to cut out part of the metal damper lip in the front with an angle grinder - total PITA but save $1,500. Not saying this is right or ok but so far so good.

Did you ask them why insulating the liner was not necessary? Just curious as to what they say.......

With natural gas being so cheap (and going to staying low for many many years) you're right about not recovering the costs involved - I love cutting and burning, that's why I put mine in 2 years ago.

 

[begreen]

The reason for insulating besides the functional improvement of draft and creosote reduction potential, is safety. An uninsulated liner will at some points be in direct contact with the clay liner or brick. When burning 24/7 this will heat the brick up via conduction. If that brick in direct contact with a combustible, like studding, the surrounding wood will heat up too. Maybe only to 300-400F or maybe higher depending on the stove's average flue temps. Over time pyrolysis will lower the ignition temperature of the wood. How long that will be depends on several factors. But it can and does happen. Let's say it is over a ten year period and then there is a 10 minute chimney fire. Now there is a situation where that studding will spontaneously ignite.

Again, the timing is unknown. It could be five years or thirty, but pyrolysis is real and does happen. If the wood in that contact area is thin or rough shaven then those thinner areas will ignite first. If the chimney has the required 2" (interior chimney) gap around it at all points then it will be safe. But this is rarely the case, especially if remodels have been done to the house.

 

[ptman]

I skipped the liner insulation when I installed my liner, 1 reason being only 1/4 of the chimney is exterior exposed, second reason(s) / I used common sense (maybe scary) thinking a chimney fire would have to burn for about 10 hours straight for the hot liner to heat clay tile, then heat the red brick then heat the cinder block that surrounds the red brick and clay tile, then that has to be hot enough to ignite a stud thats 14 to 16" from the cinder block that runs all the way to the roof in the atic..... not happening in my world......but your situation is different, especially if you have to remove the tile and I'm guessing your chimney isn't enclosed in cinder block to the roof - I think my flue was 8 x 8, liner went down ok until the last 2 foot - had to cut out part of the metal damper lip in the front with an angle grinder - total PITA but save $1,500. Not saying this is right or ok but so far so good.

Did you ask them why insulating the liner was not necessary? Just curious as to what they say.......

With natural gas being so cheap (and going to staying low for many many years) you're right about not recovering the costs involved - I love cutting and burning, that's why I put mine in 2 years ago.

that is exactly my thought also. this is an exterior chimney that measures 41" x 26" w/ a 7 x 11 clay tile flue offest slightly to 1 side. in my simple mind, it would take a very extreme situation to catch the house on fire w/ all that brick and mortar b/w the flue and the house, but what do i know. that's why i ask on here. i also dont plan on actually being able to burn in 24/7 anyway except maybe on the weekend if we are going to be around the house all day. and i know these guys (at least they say so) have put in hundreds of them w/o a liner in exterior chimneys. i just know that i dont want the house to catch on fire so i want to do it the safest way possible.

as far as there reasoning for saying the liner isnt necessary, they couldnt give me a reason other than that it wasnt necessary. it was almost like noone had ever asked the question before. the one guy that was csia did say he always uses the pre-insulated liner but his price was way too high in my opinion to make it worth doing. and he also said my flue was 10 x 14 and had "plenty" of room and he seemed like he would end up trying to upcharge me for all kinds of things once he got out here which didnt sit well w/ me.

if the flue would have been big enough to drop an insulated liner down, i would have already bought the clydesdale and be waiting on the liner to get it done this weekend. but the more time i've had to think about it, i'm just not sure i want to drop 5k on this project. i love cutting and splitting wood. everytime i see a down oak tree i start thinking about how i can get it home. but im starting to 2nd guess it and if i do it at all, i may just go with the century insert from northern tool and save about 3k. we will see though.

 

[bholler]

that is exactly my thought also. this is an exterior chimney that measures 41" x 26" w/ a 7 x 11 clay tile flue offest slightly to 1 side. in my simple mind, it would take a very extreme situation to catch the house on fire w/ all that brick and mortar b/w the flue and the house, but what do i know.

But how far is it from the edge of that flue to the outside of the chimney? How long has it been there and how many times has it been heated up over and over? Pyrolysis is very real and does happen. it may not in your case but are you willing to take the chance?

and i know these guys (at least they say so) have put in hundreds of them w/o a liner in exterior chimneys.

And they are apparently willing to bet nothing will happen with the safety of their customers at risk. I on the other hand am not willing to do that. I also care about installing to code which requires insulation. They apparently do not.

 

[ptman]

if it wasnt for this site, i would have gone ahead w/ the guy that wasnt going to insulate the liner. although, im pretty sure that even an uninsulated liner wont fit w/ my current situation. i am very grateful for all the advice so far. but i guess they have been lucky so far that they havent been sued for a chimney fire