Lath and Plaster Wall = Cold….help

[Charlotte987]

I've noticed that people have mentioned problems with mold on walls after some areas of their cold walls were covered on the inside with curtains, or furniture or whatever. The bookcases that we put up worked well, no mold on the books or on the walls. The house is covered in exterior painted asbestos tile over a spruce wood surface on the two upper stories, with plaster and lathe and more than a foot of plaster on the inside, it must be this particular configuration that's prevented mold from occurring on any of the interior walls.

 

[pen]

more than a foot of plaster on the inside

Good lord! I can only imagine the weight load a wall like this must produce!

 

[Charlotte987]

Good lord! I can only imagine the weight load a wall like this must produce!

The house has a six foot thick and about seven foot high rubble stone wall as its foundation, the basement windows look like a cave entrance. I think the original builders thought they were building a fort and wanted it to be strong. When I first moved into this house, I looked for arrow slits in the walls. So the fort-like basement can handle the plaster load of the upstairs walls so far. And if there's a war, well, were covered.

 

[Ashful]

Foot thick plaster on the interior of a framed wall? Surely I must be reading this wrong.

 

[pen]

Foot thick plaster on the interior of a framed wall? Surely I must be reading this wrong.

Did you see where she lives! In that climate, I wouldn't doubt an old structure would be built like that to try and survive!

 

[Charlotte987]

Foot thick plaster on the interior of a framed wall? Surely I must be reading this wrong.

No, you not reading this wrong, the two upper stories straddle and are attached to a six foot thick rubble stone foundation. This is not a conventional made from plans home, it was built by someone without plans or much knowledge of building. They built the foundation, added a chimney then built on two upper floors. The upper rooms of the house are attached to the subfloors with forged iron straps that attach to the structural beams. It's a strange way to build, and my neighbors interior walls are even thicker, they must have been built by the same person or persons. The houses date to before the 1820's, which is when they were likely sold for the first time.

 

[DougA]

My guess is that it has a lot more than just plaster in it to be a foot thick.

 

[delp]

that is amazing, Charlotte987! Have you made any holes in those walls to see how they are built? I just can't imagine anything other than a buttress-type gradual slope up to the top of the wall. Please post pictures Also, 6' thick rubble basement walls?! More pictures!!

 

[velvetfoot]

I feel guilty having started a conversation where, in the end, a lot of the stuff mentioned by others I feel the need to reject. I guess, like some have said, I'll just need to live with the cold wall.

I have put a fan at the top of the stairs on the second floor and it definitely helps bring the warmth from the stove up the stairs to the second floor. I don't think, like Corey says, that I'll be warming the wall at all, but it might indeed help level out the temperature.

I totally get the heads-up about not creating a moisture retaining situation with a big "tapestry" (actually, it'd just be a very tall curtain). If I do try that next winter I'd definitely keep an eye out for condensation.

As for the polystyrene beads, here's another DebbyDowner link about possible bad consequences of their use as insulation in cavity walls:

http://www.premier-heritage.co.uk/2009/08/cavity-wall-insulation-what-are-the-benefits/

I read all the comments on that link. Quite the eye opener for me.

 

[Charlotte987]

delp I don't want to hijack your thread, but you asked the question and yes it looks like its buttressed. Hope you found some solutions to the cold wall problems? Or at least something to consider and ideas to work from?



1st Back of the house, its built with a thicker end near that bottom, and slopes up.
2nd Interior basement window with about two inches of spray foam.
3rd Interior basement door to the garage, door is about five feet high.
4th Exterior wall with snow.

 

[Ashful]

Wow...

 

[EatenByLimestone]

No, you not reading this wrong, the two upper stories straddle and are attached to a six foot thick rubble stone foundation. This is not a conventional made from plans home, it was built by someone without plans or much knowledge of building. They built the foundation, added a chimney then built on two upper floors. The upper rooms of the house are attached to the subfloors with forged iron straps that attach to the structural beams. It's a strange way to build, and my neighbors interior walls are even thicker, they must have been built by the same person or persons. The houses date to before the 1820's, which is when they were likely sold for the first time.

Probably figured out they'd make a stand on your block if those crazy Americans ever invaded again!

 

[delp]

Thank you for the pictures, Charlotte987! That's amazing. No, you haven't hijacked anything, conversations evolve and wander wonderfully sometimes. The only "solution" I'll try next winter are some tall curtains on the wall. Since the wall runs next to the stairs there's no room to build a bookshelf, although that would be a great looking, albeit, massive bookcase!

 

[Ashful]

What I'm learning, in a very similar situation, is that you just can't hope to heat uninsulated stone walls. Mine remain at 52 - 53F, pretty much all day, every day, for the entire heating season. Radiant heaters are completely ineffective, in this situation. This is probably why I've never been able to put as big a dent in my oil bill, as I think I should for the amount of wood I'm burning. My baseboard heaters are convective, and very effective, whereas my stoves are radiant.

Heat the air, give up on those walls. Thus may be the cost you pay for the cosmetic appeal of an old house.

 

[Charlotte987]

Used to live with roomates years ago as a student. We rented huge old, drafty apartments in the city. One that I recall was an entire partitioned ballroom in an old mansion. The front wall of the largest room had enormous leaded windows and was grey stone facing block with an inner course of brick, which had about an inch of plaster on top. In winter the wall would have frost on it. One of the students was studying engineering at the time and we all got together and decided to build a temporary wall on top of the the cold wall. It was made to be put up in winter and taken down in the summer, made only of non-organic materials, plastic panels were sandwiched on either side of pieces of rigid insulation. We couldn't damage the wall or attach anything to it, and because the materials were light weight we duct taped it to a metal curtain rod that we attached temporarily to the walls, in summer we removed the temporary wall, but it did work, it just was not all that pretty. It made a difference in the temperature in that room and worked like a false wall, there was no mold on the walls when we took it down in the summer. It's certainly an idea that could be worked on and developed.

 

[renewablejohn]

What I'm learning, in a very similar situation, is that you just can't hope to heat uninsulated stone walls. Mine remain at 52 - 53F, pretty much all day, every day, for the entire heating season. Radiant heaters are completely ineffective, in this situation. This is probably why I've never been able to put as big a dent in my oil bill, as I think I should for the amount of wood I'm burning. My baseboard heaters are convective, and very effective, whereas my stoves are radiant.

Heat the air, give up on those walls. Thus may be the cost you pay for the cosmetic appeal of an old house.

Dont give up on your stone walls. Here in UK we live in a listed farmhouse dating back to approx 1650. It has 2 foot thick stone walls and was basically a fridge with all the heat exiting through the single glazed windows. In UK we have very strict rules on refurbishment of listed buildings but have just installed triple glaze glass direct into the stone mullions and the difference has been amazing obviously the heat was escaping through the windows not the stone walls. To protect the fabric of the building from condensation the house is fitted with individual MVHR units in all kitchens and en suites.

 

[Ashful]

Thanks, John. We have all original 1770's windows, but a prior owner fitted them all with high quality triple-track (common in USA) storm windows. Those triple-tracks are now at least 30 years old, and tired, and I've been replacing them with traditional wooden storm windows. I find that the radiation loss from my old windows with storms is actually much better than my modern windows in our new addition, the modern windows being Andersen 400 series double-glazed with low-E glass. My primary enemy with the old windows is draft, and while I could install interlocking metal weatherstripping on each sash, the old house purist in me has resisted the idea.

Really, we don't do that bad, considering the size of the house we're heating. My comment about the stone walls was still valid, they do hold 52F, no matter how warm the air may be in the house. However, I think the majority of our heat loss is actually our attic and one small 1890's addition (800 sq.ft.), which is a framed building. We will be mostly demolishing and rebuilding that addition, in the next few years.

 

[woodgeek]

My buddy with a stone house (cotswold cottage style) has a remarkably low heating bill. As I understand it, there is an outer and inner stone wall, connected by tie stones, and the cavity is filled with loose stone 'rubble' that is low thermal conductivity. Also, rather airtight when compared to most timber construction.

 

[renewablejohn]

My buddy with a stone house (cotswold cottage style) has a remarkably low heating bill. As I understand it, there is an outer and inner stone wall, connected by tie stones, and the cavity is filled with loose stone 'rubble' that is low thermal conductivity. Also, rather airtight when compared to most timber construction.

Similar construction to our house with all the heat originally going out through the roof. We now have 4 inch insulation between ceiling joists with a further 4 inch across ceiling joists and finally 4 inch between rafters. Prior to insulation the house was heated with 65kw oil fired boiler now we have a 20kw Dunsley Yorkshire wood boiler running 11 radiators.

 

[TonyVideo]

I have an 1880's home with 3 layers of brick on all outside perimeter walls. I have 11 foot ceilings on 2 floors with 3,000 sqft total. I real bear to heat. I have a 175,000 btu gas furnace that does OK until it gets to below zero then it runs non stop. All this brick is one huge heat sink. I quit dropping the Temps at night as it took too long to get back up to normal temp. Last year added 2 pellet stoves in two areas downstairs. Furnace at 65 and zone heat with the stoves to 70-72 when we are in that area of the house or home moving around. This has worked great for us. I gave up trying to heat the whole house consistently. The key I learned was to set the furnace and leave it alone. I used more gas raising and lowering it trying to save gas even before the stoves. The stoves added a level of comfort when needed. 2nd floor stayed above 60 even on the coldest days which we like for sleeping. I would love to find a way to make it better but an old house is an old house. There are small things I can keep doing and will continue. Good luck.

 

[Ashful]

Eleven foot ceilings in 1880's brick? Please measure twice! That is one odd-ball house. Common would be 9' first floor, with 8' or 9' on second floor, for 1880's brick or stone houses around here. I have owned several.