Kedel or Okofen

[DZL_Damon]

Do you know of any examples? Or other installation issues with Kedel?

Read through the whole thread and see where that $22k price tag is not just for a pellet boiler installation, it's for an entire heating system install with a (I agree) overpriced Indirect hot water heater install as well. Misleading quote like this is detrimental for the entire biomass industry... folks skim through the pages and see a quick post like that and think "$22k for a pellet boiler?? I'll stay with oil"

 

[moey]

Holy sh**t... I really hope for 22k people look long and hard at geothermal systems. They can be less depending on your house and your not a slave to it. Its also hard to A/C your house with a pellet boiler.

 

[DZL_Damon]

Can you document this? Did you have a price list before the rebate and one after? I am just curious because I felt they were doing the same thing.

It went up $200 on their website Pat... this us because they upped the boilers warranty from 7 years to 30 years ( I asked why). The rest appears to be rumor and speculation or misleading quotes that don't include all the details

 

[DBNH22]

But they did increase their prices as soon as the rebate went into effect!

Who's they? Interphase? Revision? The contractors doing installs on their boilers? It appears you're referring to the Kedel reseller.

When I first started looking into buying a pellet boiler it seemed as if most of the dealers did not have a very in depth understanding of the rebates being offered in Maine, NH and MA. Some of them mentioned the rebates but did not mention the fact that there was a bulk storage requirement. I don't think they intentionally omitted that info, rather they were honestly unaware of it themselves.

Jacking up the price because a rebate went into affect assumes that everyone buying a pellet boiler is going to opt for the bulk storage solution so that they can get the rebate. I did not and have no plans to. My Biowin has proven to save money this year and I'm looking at a payback of seven years. The added costs of a bulk storage solution compared to the rebate amount may have put me about $1000 in the black when it was all said and done but then that $1000 will probably be made up over time in the lower costs that I will be paying for bagged pellets vs. bulk delivery.

It really pissed me off that there was a bulk storage requirement to the rebate. A big friggin dog and pony show about helping people "go green." Peel back the layers on that onion and it was nothing but one hand washing the other. Business as usual. Nothing wrong with that I guess other than the fact that it didn't help me one damn bit.

 

[Chris Hoskin]

Dana B, so you live in southern NH, you CHOSE not to install a 3+ ton bulk bin and so CHOSE not to receive a 30% rebate and the problem is with the rebate program?! I must be missing something....

 

[DBNH22]

Dana B, so you live in southern NH, you CHOSE not to install a 3+ ton bulk bin and so CHOSE not to receive a 30% rebate and the problem is with the rebate program?! I must be missing something....

The rebate was billed as an incentive for people to go green and use biomass. If that's the case why make a bulk storage feature one of the requirements when some of the pellet boiler manufacturers that are selling product in this area do not have a bulk storage solution available? Why didn't the rebate just come right out and say the rebate is for this one brand of boiler? Granted others have come up with bulk storage solutions on their own with the brands of boilers that did not already have them but what about those who chose not to go with the bulk storage for various reasons? Are they still not going green by switching from oil to pellets? I know a several people that were interested and would have been able to afford pellet boilers without bulk storage if they were eligible for the rebate. But the bulk storage requirement and the actual additional costs of bulk storage made it unaffordable. So not only do they lose out but the businesses selling some of these pellet boilers do as well.

 

[maple1]

Dana B, so you live in southern NH, you CHOSE not to install a 3+ ton bulk bin and so CHOSE not to receive a 30% rebate and the problem is with the rebate program?! I must be missing something....

I can see both sides of this one.

Why does a bulk bin need to be a requirement - it might not be practical for a lot of people, and there might not be practical bulk delivery available for a lot of people. Plus bagged is cheaper from what I've read. But a bulk bin may be necessary to maintain constant 'automatic' operation if one of the thrusts of the program is to displace oil burners and accompanying an oil tank.

 

[DBNH22]

I can see both sides of this one.

Why does a bulk bin need to be a requirement - it might not be practical for a lot of people, and there might not be practical bulk delivery available for a lot of people. Plus bagged is cheaper from what I've read. But a bulk bin may be necessary to maintain constant 'automatic' operation if one of the thrusts of the program is to displace oil burners and accompanying an oil tank.

I'm glad someone else sees it from both sides. To your point about constant automatic operation: even the 500 gallon oil tank or 3+ ton pellet hopper will need to be refilled eventually. My Biowin holds 320 pounds of pellets and will operate constantly and automatically until those 320 pounds are depleted. granted that won't be as long as 3 ton plus hopper but it's the same concept. we're just talking about size and it seems arbitrary to me.

 

[sinnian]

If you think these programs have anything to do with being "green" you have the wrong idea of green. These rebates are entirely the result of lobbying so certain companies can reap the rewards at the tax payer's expense.

 

[DBNH22]

If you think these programs have anything to do with being "green" you have the wrong idea of green. These rebates are entirely the result of lobbying so certain companies can reap the rewards at the tax payer's expense.

That's what I was getting at sinnian. This rebate was designed to help the boiler companies that already had a bulk storage solution in place sell more boilers and the pellet companies offering bulk delivery at the time sell more pellets.

 

[bigbobs]

In NH from what I heard the rebate program was used to jumpstart the bulk delivery infrastructure. Trucks and bulk storage at the suppliers side are expensive. Without customers, who would want to drop $300K + to set up bulk delivery. A truck, new would be at least $200k, plus if the supplier was not close enough to a pellet manufacture they would need a form of bulk storage so the pellets could be transported by an 18 wheeler truck and off loaded and stored with a means to refill into the smaller truck for local delivery. Chicken and egg situation.

 

[heaterman]

If you think these programs have anything to do with being "green" you have the wrong idea of green. These rebates are entirely the result of lobbying so certain companies can reap the rewards at the tax payer's expense.

^^^^^^^^^^^
We have a winner.



The company that really worked on this is trying to force business their way and defray their cost of delivery equipment. Which is substantial to say the least.
Not an entirely bad thing but not completely transparent either.

We have no such program in Michigan (one of the most backward states in the US when it comes to energy as far as I can see. Anything that happens is driven by the big utilities)

The owner of a large regional pellet manufacturer and I were discussing the subject of bulk delivery just a couple days ago. It is a huge investment on their part and it makes it very difficult to take the plunge when there are few users set up for bulk delivery. Conversely, pellet users are not going to invest in a bulk bin if they have to fill it manually. So which is the chicken and which is the egg?

That being the case I cannot say that an emerging market which needs a kick start should not seek a little public funding to get going. The crux of that issue is that the playing field should be level for all entrants into the particular field of business.
Then and only then will free market forces truly regulate the product price.

 

[sinnian]

It is a double edged sword. I guess I would be less against it, if we were not already giving big oil 22 million/day in subsidies...............

 

[BoilerMan]

I've has this type of conversation a few times myself. There are a couple of multiple large-building land lords which I've worked for. Some burn wood, some coal, some oil, some LP, or any combination of the four. One has a pellet boiler, and he asked me if I know of anyone who would be interested in buying it......... it's a cheap Amazing-Heat 'nough said.

I told him, and other big land lords, if I were in their shoes and had the capital, I'd be buying some high-quality pellet boilers for those buildings. I'd invest in a "potato bulk truck" farmers all over have them. Bulk body with a conveyer belt to unload crop out the back. There is a pellet mill 20 miles out of town, and I'd have my own bulk delivery system and serve the rest of my fellow "lords" the same. Some number crunching and I think it's a win-win.

TS

 

[DZL_Damon]

FYI to other readers, at least the Maine incentive does not require automatic delivery. You can either do bulk, OR leave your remaining oil/propane set up in place with at least a 500lbs hopper for the pellet boiler AND the old oil/propane system must be set up to take over if the pellet boiler fails/runs out of pellets. I chose the latter option to get my rebate and I was thankful since I didn't want a massive silo in my garage. However, Maine only states the bulk option holds enough fuel for 2 weeks of uninturupted operation while maintaining all areas of the house at 50*F. I assume they mean on a design day? Heck, wouldn't even need a ton for that.


As far as landlords go, automated pellet boilers is the way to go if heat is included in the rent. If I had my own wood I'd have a gassifyer in a heart beat so my soul purpose on this forum is not all about pellets. However, a house/apt that you are not at everyday benefits greatly from automated pellet boilers. Working on setting that up with my grandmothers apartments right now.

 

[lokewolf]

So I'm looking at new construction in Brookline, NH...southern NH, and my builder is looking to put in Propane Hot air furnace and A/C w/duct work (pretty Standard stuff). House will be 3400sq/ft, 3 zones...1 for finished side of basement. Hot water is going to be tankless/propane setup at this point. Thing is I really want to get away from propane or limit use of it !!
I'm currently using about 1100 gal ($2.40/gal) of propane a year in a smaller house about 2300 sq/ft w/ tankless Rheem water heater. What might my savings be by installing a Kedel 102 w/3ton hopper over Propane forced hot air?
Geothermal is interesting in that it both heats and cools, but costs to install and repair/maintain can be rediculous from what I've heard.
Would hybrid heat pump/ac work?
Would sticking with builder setup and buying a freestanding wool pellet stove to supplement heat and cut consumption of propane be just as good?

EF

 

[moey]

So I'm looking at new construction in Brookline, NH...southern NH, and my builder is looking to put in Propane Hot air furnace and A/C w/duct work (pretty Standard stuff). House will be 3400sq/ft, 3 zones...1 for finished side of basement. Hot water is going to be tankless/propane setup at this point. Thing is I really want to get away from propane or limit use of it !!
I'm currently using about 1100 gal ($2.40/gal) of propane a year in a smaller house about 2300 sq/ft w/ tankless Rheem water heater. What might my savings be by installing a Kedel 102 w/3ton hopper over Propane forced hot air?
Geothermal is interesting in that it both heats and cools, but costs to install and repair/maintain can be rediculous from what I've heard.
Would hybrid heat pump/ac work?
Would sticking with builder setup and buying a freestanding wool pellet stove to supplement heat and cut consumption of propane be just as good?

EF

Don't go by what you heard....

Id suggest getting a quote for geothermal we paid about 22k for ours with ductwork. Take out the ductwork it was about 14k. A new furnace and A/C probably is 10k or slightly more I would guess. Not that big of price difference specially on a new house. You would be more comfortable and actually not cringe when it came time to run the heat. We have had our system 3 years I clean the filter once a month with my vacuum that is the only maintenance. Its got 10 years parts and labor warranty as well.

 

[lokewolf]

Don't go by what you heard....

Id suggest getting a quote for geothermal we paid about 22k for ours with ductwork. Take out the ductwork it was about 14k. A new furnace and A/C probably is 10k or slightly more I would guess. Not that big of price difference specially on a new house. You would be more comfortable and actually not cringe when it came time to run the heat. We have had our system 3 years I clean the filter once a month with my vacuum that is the only maintenance. Its got 10 years parts and labor warranty as well.

Did you use the same well (how deep) or did you need a second well drilled?

 

[moey]

Did you use the same well (how deep) or did you need a second well drilled?

We have a ground loop 3000 ft of piping at 5ft buried its a closed system no well. Took a day and half for them to put the loop in and have the pipes coming in the house. The footprint for it is about 25 ft * 150 ft. It could go smaller if the lot is smaller they can get pretty creative.

 

[lokewolf]

Were you oil, gas or electric user previously and how much would you estimate you're saving each year now?

 

[heaterman]

Don't forget the 30% tax credit on Geo expires this year.
Think long term if you're building new. What do you want to be involved with in 10 years, 20 years or more.
Think about replacement costs.
Think about what "user interaction" with a system is going to entail. Nothing? 15 minutes a day? Is it capable of running unattended for 1 day, 3 days, a month? Or does it require no attention from you at all?

 

[moey]

Were you oil, gas or electric user previously and how much would you estimate you're saving each year now?

We previously burned 1200 gallons heating oil about 3000 sq/ft so so insulation. The geo system used about $1000 worth of electricity this year at .14 kw/hr. That number would include heat and all the hot water between Oct and March. A/C costs were insignificant probably less then $20 a month in the August.

I dont really plug numbers on what Im saving the heating system it replaced didnt work well and I wanted A/C I got both in one unit. And Im not pissy and cold anymore. Tried pellets for a couple years burned 4-5 tons per year and parts of the house were always cold.

 

[moey]

Don't forget the 30% tax credit on Geo expires this year.

It expires the end of 2016. They moved it to another tax code which caused some confusion as to when it ended. Its been renewed several times although at some point Im sure it will go away.