Just about to buy my first wood stove...

[Gregan]

Hello, I'm so happy to find this community... there aren't many places online for good sources of revies on wood burning stoves.

I purchased an old cabin in the woods near Vancouver, Canada and I've spent the summer renovating it and I'm exhausted with all of the work and choices that I've had to go through over the past six months... and now I have to choose a new stove to heat the place.

If you folks could help me make a choice here I'd be very grateful.

Key facts:

• 1,800 square foot home.
• Insulated according to codes back in the 70's... so pretty crappy.
• Installed new electric baseboard heating system to heat home when necessary.
• Wood stove to be used as the primary heating source whenever possible to keep heating bills down.
• We rarely go below -5°C (23°F) and are almost always above 0°C (32°F) - (year round temp profile below)
• There was previously a wood stove here but it was old school and not efficient (pic below)

Questions:

• Should I care about getting a stove with a catalytic converter?
• How easy are they to install? (Looks like I just plonk it down, connect the air intake and screw in the chimney into the ceiling, but I don't want to be an idiot and cause a fire. There is a tile platform and a tile backsplash all the way up the wall with the chimney connector in the ceiling)

These are the models that my wife and I like:

• https://supremem.com/novo_18.php (tempted to go up to the 24...)
• https://www.osburn-mfg.com/en/products/wood-stoves/inspire-wood-stove/
• https://stuvamerica.com/en/products/stuv-16/ (not sure if I should get the 58 or the 68... they are pricey but beautiful)

Please

 

[EbS-P]

If it were me I’d be seriously looking at a blaze king https://www.blazeking.com/products/chinook-30/

We have similar winter climates. 2000 sq ft here late 1960s construction. We have a 1.7 cu ft stove. It’s the right size 90% of the time but is smaller size means short burns. So I consider burn time as important as heat output. I would also consider a mini split heatpump if you choose a secondary combustion (ie not a catalytic) stove. Some days is nice not to have to light a wood stove and your climate means the efficiency would be high. I run mine most days if it’s above 45 or 50.

Will the install be wett inspected? A stove change out is a good time to get the whole venting system looked over.

 

[marty319]

Pacific energy and regency are both manufactured on the island. Might want to check those out.

 

[Ashful]

The above two already stole my first three suggestions, and for the same reasons I would've given:

Blaze King: model any "30" series or a Princess
Pacific Energy: model T4
Regency: don't know the models, but I know they're made local to you

BK has a cat, and can do lower burn rates for long periods of steady heat. The other two are non-cat, and favor slightly higher burn rates, but you can manage with a smaller stove or smaller loads (search on "pump and glide").

I'd favor the BK in your climate, but some would call me biased, so take that advice at what you paid for it.

 

[kborndale]

Do u have wood yet? You need your wood split and stacked at least a year before you plan to use the stove.

 

[Gregan]

If it were me I’d be seriously looking at a blaze king https://www.blazeking.com/products/chinook-30/

I would also consider a mini split heatpump if you choose a secondary combustion (ie not a catalytic) stove.

Will the install be wett inspected? A stove change out is a good time to get the whole venting system looked over.

What about this model is compelling to you? What features should I be looking at?

We have a new electric baseboard system that has been installed throughout the house, much cheaper than the heatpump.

The chimney was wett inspected last year, would be fine with getting it inspected again if necessary.

 

[Gregan]

Do u have wood yet? You need your wood split and stacked at least a year before you plan to use the stove.

This past summer we cut down a GIANT Douglas Fir (14' diameter at the base), it's mostly split and will hopefully be ready for next year. We have loads of wood shop wood scraps to burn for this year, not ideal but free as well.

 

[Gregan]

I'd favor the BK in your climate, but some would call me biased, so take that advice at what you paid for it.

Can you help me understand why you favour the BK? I need to understand the key features and nuances better here...

 

[Ashful]

Can you help me understand why you favour the BK? I need to understand the key features and nuances better here...

All modern stoves work on a secondary burn principle. Whereas older stoves would burn (or smolder) wood in the firebox, and send the volatile-laden fuel-rich smoke up the chimney, all modern EPA certified stoves have some system to "re-burn" the volatiles remaining after initial combustion in the firebox. This vastly increases heat output and efficiency, from a given amount of wood, and means you can heat your home with less wood. This is a very big deal for anyone splitting and hauling enough wood to actually heat a home.

There are three primary methods of achieving this secondary burn:

1. Non-cat stoves work by introducing fresh air into exhaust path, and achieving secondary burn of these exhaust gasses without the aid of a catalyst. In order to do this, they must maintain those exhaust gasses above 1100F, which really limits how far you can turn the stove down. You will read references to the "EPA hole", a requirement from the EPA that enough air must be allowed into the firebox even with the controls fully shut down, in order to not stall this secondary burn. This is also the genesis for some of the older complaints about run-away stoves as you truly cannot shut them down, although I do believe that's mostly a problem of the past, manufacturers have gotten better at tuning their stoves to eliminate this problem that seemed to plague some of the earlier non-cats.

2. Catalytic stoves do exactly the same thing as a non-cat, but with aid of a catalyst, they can maintain this secondary burn at 500F. This allows you to shut them own farther, and achieve longer burn times at lower output rates. There is still an EPA-mandated hole, but due to having to maintain only 500F versus 1100F, it is much, much smaller. You'll hear the slang "riding the hole" in the BK forum, referring to shutting down tight, such that the only air entering the firebox is thru this hole in the air inlet damper.

3. Hybrid stoves try to achieve the best of both worlds, employing both non-catalytic reburn mechanisms (eg. tubes) and a catalyst. I'm not sure that any have met or exceeded cats on burn time or non-cats on max output, but they definitely tend to have a wider range of very low emissions. They also extend the life of a catalyst, one boasting 20 years warranty on the first combustor, as opposed to BK's 10 years for their cat stoves.

Then there's BK... unique even among cat stoves. They employ a thermostat, designed to automatically throttle the air control and give a very even heat output over all phases of the burn cycle. Other brands have this, but BK is one of the few who really got this right. Most of us are getting burn times of about 30 hours from the BK 30 or Princess, or 20 hours from the BK 20's, on the lowest rate. This low rate may not heat your house in the coldest weather, but it's very useful for cool rainy days like today in the mid-Atlantic region.

The reason I favor it for your application is that, thanks to this low and slow capability, you could buy a BIGGER stove and run BIGGER loads of wood if you went with BK, than if you were to buy a non-cat. This can give you longer periods between reloads, or conversely, less temperature swing in that mild climate and modest space you're trying to heat.

The penalty of a cat stove is that you will eventually have to replace the combustor. Some burning mostly low and slow with softwoods report a replacement every 10 - 12,000 hours. I'm at more than double that, burning hotter with hardwoods, and no signs of failure yet. The combustor costs $200 and takes about five minutes to swap, but that's enough to turn some folks off on cat stoves. There's also the issue of only burning cord wood in a cat stove, as painted lumber and other trash can "poison" the cat, whereas non-cats can burn anything that will burn.

Finally, there are some very bad older stove designs still floating around the used market, both cat and non-cat. But given the timing and history of both tech's, it definitely appears that there were more bad cat stove designs in the 1980's and 1990's, than there were ever bad non-cat designs in the 10-20 years following that. So, cat stoves got a bit of a bad reputation back in the day, which good companies like Woodstock and BK still battle today.

 

[EbS-P]

What about this model is compelling to you? What features should I be looking at?

We have a new electric baseboard system that has been installed throughout the house, much cheaper than the heatpump.

The chimney was wett inspected last year, would be fine with getting it inspected again if necessary.

I like the heatpump stove combination because it’s very efficient (we have to have AC so the heatpump just makes sense) 4-5x more efficient that baseboard heat. Heatpump means I never over heat the house in shoulder season.

Where you have new baseboard electric it probably doesn’t make sense unless you think you need AC for the hottest week of the year.

I think a BK makes the most sense. Hand down the 30 chinook would be my choice if wanting a modern look. Do you have single or double wall inside pipe? Recommendation is double for the low exhaust temps of a BK.

 

[stoveliker]

I agree with ebs-p: baseboard is cheap to install but operating cost will easily be 3 times more expensive. You only get 1 kWh of heat for each kWh of electricity paid for. A minisplit above freezing can have an efficiency of 4: get 4 kWh of heat delivered when paying for 1 kWh of electricity.

But then I also agree with ashful. Good summary. I am also biased as I have a Blaze King. They can turn down to 11,000 BTUs per hr (or so), which is nice.in your climate. Note that 1 kWh equates to about 3400 BTUs. So you can turn down this stove to (continuously, for 30 hrs) provide the equivalent of three and a half (1.5kW) electric space heaters.

A few, much smaller, stoves can turn down more. But they don't get the long and even output of the BK thermostat.

So. Either.go with a not too large secondary (tube) stove AND a minisplit (or the wasteful baseboard). Or go with a cat stove, and in my biased opinion, a BK is likely best there.

When begreen shows up he will have well-informed advice as well.

 

[EbS-P]

What about this model is compelling to you? What features should I be looking at?

We have a new electric baseboard system that has been installed throughout the house, much cheaper than the heatpump.

The chimney was wett inspected last year, would be fine with getting it inspected again if necessary.

What are paying for electricity and will the be your permanent residence?

 

[begreen]

Blaze King: model any "30" series or a Princess
Pacific Energy: model T4
Regency: don't know the models, but I know they're made local to you

Go much larger if choosing a PE. The T4 is a medium/small stove. I would suggest a 3 cu ft stove. That is what we have in a 2000 sq ft 1926 farmhouse in the same climate. It definitely is not too large.

The PE Summit or Alderlea T6 would do well or a Regency 2450 ortheir 3500. Also consider a Drolet or Osburn in the 3 cu ft range too. Many Blaze King stoves are made in BC too and something like a Princess should work well.

PS: If that is a Regency R9, it's not a smoke dragon. It was an early secondary tube stove and could work for this winter if you wanted to wait for stove inventory to build back up and hopefully for stove prices to drop back down to a sane level. The main thing you need asap is dry firewood for this season and the next. Expect to burn about 3 cords a year. Doug fir is a good choice in this region and if split and stacked covered in March, it can dry in about 7-8 months.

PPS: I second the suggestion for a heat pump. We are in an ideal climate for them. When it is above 45ºF, we are heating with the heat pump, thus the benefits of a cat stove are less for our needs.

 

[j7art2]

I've got an Osburn 3500 that I got installed this Spring. It heats my 1700sqft home so far with the coldest it's gotten being 17F since install. We get -30F here occasionally in the dead of winter. It's been a pretty good stove so far and has pretty much been in constant operation since the middle of October. It heats fairly well all things considered and I think it'll do just fine for my needs. My daughters room farthest from the stove is the coldest in the house, but still remains comfortable in the mid to high 60's.

I could have gotten a BK as my local dealer is an Osburn and Blaze King dealer (amongst others) and a Princess was within budget, but I chose not to after talking to the rep. I was not interested in purchasing a BK "King" due to the larger 8" flue, and would only consider a Princess, but was informed by the company that the Princess in their experience does not heat the square footage it's rated for well in Michigan.

Their shop is about 1800 sqft and they heat the shop with their own BK Princess. They said that regardless of the wood species and seasoning, the thermostat rarely reaches the temperature they set it at if it's above 72. They keep the shop warm, but it's running full tilt almost always. It's one large open space. I can't speak any more to the BK brand other than this, and I know many people like and swear by the stove and brand. If I had to choose a different brand other than SBI's offering (parent company to Osburn and Drolet), BK is still in my top 3 of interest.

They did note that in the 6 years they have been in operation as a company and have been heating with the stove, they have not had to clean the chimney at all.

Quadrafire and Lopi also are known for making great units. After browsing the forums long enough here, I'd personally stay away from big box store brands unless they're Drolet. Vermont Castings and Jotul are also ones I'd personally avoid. YMMV of course.

 

[GrumpyDad]

Do u have wood yet? You need your wood split and stacked at least a year before you plan to use the stove.

HIs place looks like mine. Picturesque yet, sun is in short supply. I have ONE spot where my wood can get some sun, otherwise Id be seasoning for probably 4 years.

 

[Ashful]

Their shop is about 1800 sqft and they heat the shop with their own BK Princess. They said that regardless of the wood species and seasoning, the thermostat rarely reaches the temperature they set it at if it's above 72....

They did note that in the 6 years they have been in operation as a company and have been heating with the stove, they have not had to clean the chimney at all.

This is really surprising to hear. I'm in a similar climate, and heating a much larger uninsulated space with a BK of similar size (actually slightly smaller) than the Princess. I wonder if this is like many other stove shops, where they have part of the show room open to a "3-seasons" space for grills and patio furniture, such that their heat demand is unusually high for 1800 sq.ft.?

I would believe that their pipe is sparkly clean, if they're running WOT all day every day, but that's also not what most of us see. Running low and slow, as many choose to do with their BK's, creates low exhaust temperatures. So, while their particulate output is not uniquely high, what particulates do exist in the exhaust will have a higher tendency to condense within the pipe.

 

[j7art2]

This is really surprising to hear. I'm in a similar climate, and heating a much larger uninsulated space with a BK of similar size (actually slightly smaller) than the Princess. I wonder if this is like many other stove shops, where they have part of the show room open to a "3-seasons" space for grills and patio furniture, such that their heat demand is unusually high for 1800 sq.ft.?

I would believe that their pipe is sparkly clean, if they're running WOT all day every day, but that's also not what most of us see. Running low and slow, as many choose to do with their BK's, creates low exhaust temperatures. So, while their particulate output is not uniquely high, what particulates do exist in the exhaust will have a higher tendency to condense within the pipe.

Their shop does have a sliding door on the back of their shop that opens into the warehouse and I'll admit, I don't know how insulated that door is. Their unit is also on the last 1/3 of their shop, somewhat near that door. The building is newer, an insulated polebarn essentially with another attached behind it.

All of their inventory (grills, zero clearance wood cooktop stoves, coal burning units, etc) are all on display in the main room. Hearthpads, chimney pipe and extra units are what they keep in the back and that's closed unless there's a reason to be back there. It's easily 20 degrees colder at minimum in the warehouse.

They didn't have much bad to say about the unit other than that particular issue, and all things considered, it appears to be a good unit and is (imo) more well built than my Osburn. The Osburn is a beautiful and well built stove, but the BK is a masterpiece by design.

They had nothing bad to say about the Osburn, and I chose it solely because I did not want to deal with a catalytic converter after spending far too much time here lol. My only complaint is that I'm going through a little more wood than I anticipated and expected to save "big" on wood compared to my 1970's basement wood furnace. I'll save some, but as much as I anticipated and I'm heating my house in a completely different way than before too. The bright side is, I imagine my chimney won't be filling a 5 gallon bucket with junk every year when I clean it like it used to.

 

[Gregan]

Thanks for the detailed reply @Ashful .

 

[kborndale]

HIs place looks like mine. Picturesque yet, sun is in short supply. I have ONE spot where my wood can get some sun, otherwise Id be seasoning for probably 4 years.

Wood still seasons in the shade, and not much slower. I've got two spots to store my wood. One gets a lot of sun and the other gets very little. There is only a small difference in moisture content between the two. Wind and humidity are more important than sun.

 

[Ashful]

The building is newer, an insulated polebarn essentially with another attached behind it.

Good info, j7art2. This one quote may be a key part of the discrepancy. If they have a 16 or 24 foot ceiling, that'd be 2x or 3x more volume and exterior surface area (=heat loss) than any square footage estimate given by BK.

 

[bholler]

I don't doubt the stove shops experience at all. The princess just isn't a high BTU stove

 

[j7art2]

Good info, j7art2. This one quote may be a key part of the discrepancy. If they have a 16 or 24 foot ceiling, that'd be 2x or 3x more volume and exterior surface area (=heat loss) than any square footage estimate given by BK

The warehouse behind it isn't heated at all to my knowledge (or maybe it is with the wood boiler system they have setup out back) but the fact that there's an extra mass there that may be absorbing some of the heat along that wall may be a part of it too, especially if the door separating them is poorly insulated. It's always been closed while I've been there unless I've asked for things back there, but for all I know, it could be open 50% of the day when I haven't been there too.

 

[stoveliker]

If they don't have a ceiling fan, then that's my first thought about a cause. Stores rarely have 8 ft ceilings.

And 1800 sqft doesn't need a "high BTU" stove if it's decently insulated. I do 1700 sqft from an additional 800ish sqft basement. And I do it easily, despite mwah insulation in the 1977 walls (good sealing and attic insulation).

 

[Ashful]

I don't doubt the stove shops experience at all. The princess just isn't a high BTU stove

Yeah, I guess. Never ran a Princess, just seemed surprising to me, based on comparison to the space I'm heating.

I know I can rip thru 700k BTU of oak in about 5 hours in the Ashford 30, which no matter the efficiency number used, yields some big BTU/h number (esp. in first two hours). But an Ashford 30 dialed in on ideal draft with blowers gushing could be very different than a Princess, esp. without fans and with unknown draft.

 

[bholler]

Yeah, I guess. Never ran a Princess, just seemed surprising to me, based on comparison to the space I'm heating.

I know I can rip thru 700k BTU of oak in about 5 hours in the Ashford 30, which no matter the efficiency number used, yields some big BTU/h number (esp. in first two hours). But an Ashford 30 dialed in on ideal draft with blowers gushing could be very different than a Princess, esp. without fans and with unknown draft.

And what other stoves have you used to compare blazekings to? They are fantastic stoves but not good at high BTU output