Jotul Model Series 8 AP Help

[MikeS]

help:

Just acquired a used Jotul Model Series 8 AP (I think). It is an "8" and has an ash pan...

NEED MANUAL. ANYONE GOT ONE?

Also, anyone want to offer advice/comments on the following:

Plan to install with 13' straight 6" stack, 8' class A and 4 or 5 feet of double-wall telescope black pipe.
Stove has rear vent option, not top center. would like to keep this way.
Catalyst is present and looks good. I considered a lower-head-loss cat from Sud Chemie-but that will be my last resort.
I am at 5000 feet msl.
I doubt anyone would accuse my house of being "tight."

I hate to have any more stack than this, as this proposed setup already has 6+ feet sticking up out of my roof, requiring bracing.

think it will draft well?

also, I see lots of dissent regarding outside air. however, I have considerd bringing in crawl-space air (vented space down there). Any ideas? I am not sure it is practical to cause this cold, crawl space air to become my combustion air, but it is worth considering since I have the floor torn up for hardwood and a tile area for the stove...

any ideas? probably can't have holes in the floor protection without some crafty, non-combustible ingenuity...both above and below floor level...

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Well Mike, do you have a series 8, model 8, 8tdc, or 8 tdic? manuals can be hard to come by. Im not a expert enough to tell you the differences between them, because they are all internal changes. Where are you located? At 5000 your 13 foot chimney should be all right, it wouldnt hurt it to be taller. Do you already have the chimney? I wouldnt pull combustion air from the crawspace, they tend to be negative pressure areas anyway and you dont want to make it worse. You should pull combustion air from the outside, but i dont recommend you mess with it unless you get your stack taller. You arealready borderline for that altitude, you dont need any restriction. You already said your house isnt tight, so why bother. Just hook it up, strait as possible, with no elbows and you will be fine. Is the service tag gone from the back of the stove?

 

[MikeS]

Thanks, MSG:

the label is present and says "Model: Jotul Model Series 8". it does indeed also have an ashpan. that is why I called it a "model series 8 AP." BTW, some internals have "TDIC" cast into them, so I think probably the TDIC was the last iteration of the "8" and maybe they dropped the suffix?

Manufactrued 031897

the "old jotul products" page only shows one with an ashpan. but it is just a simple image. no link to any real substance. barely adequate for ID purposes.

I am impressed with everything about Jotul except for two things:

no direct contact links on their web page, and
no historical product doucmentation.

I would be much more proactive supporting my products when building safety were at stake. Oh well.

I will contact the local rep and see what I can get them to supply.

There was no damage except for a couple bent screws (one leg screw I bent moving it, the other was holding the silly little tray in the front). I can replace these easily.

I got the stove, perfect condition, telescope pipe, entire chimney assy (but only 4' long), and a flagstone hearth (if I can move it). need one more stick of TG chimney, and insulation shield and some roof bracing.....


THANKS FOR THE INFO--NICE SITE

 

[MikeS]

Oh yeah, missed one:

I am in Boulder, CO. Hence my concern for getting a listed EPA low emission appliance--the inspector gonna wanna see that label!
Yes, I have SOME chimney--it is TG type, galvanized outside, 4' only. I may get one more stick of this stuff, the insulation gaurd and come up with a roof brace. Otherwise, I will probably buy new all-stainless chimney--but since they are "systems" i would be buying every piece over again, I think.....

 

[begreen]

Sounds like a nice score Mike. Let us know how she works once installed and post some pics once it hot and burning.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Oh yeah, missed one:

I am in Boulder, CO. Hence my concern for getting a listed EPA low emission appliance--the inspector gonna wanna see that label!
Yes, I have SOME chimney--it is TG type, galvanized outside, 4' only. I may get one more stick of this stuff, the insulation gaurd and come up with a roof brace. Otherwise, I will probably buy new all-stainless chimney--but since they are "systems" i would be buying every piece over again, I think.....

Well if your in boulder, you have already found your rep. Me.
I will call Jotul on wed. and see if i can get a copy of the TDIC manual emailed to me. Im off today and tommorrow. Yes they are systems, you cant mix and match brands of pipe. We have two brans of chimney if needed, but i would think twice before i bought all new 8" pipe. Also, i dont think that the TDIC is a phase 2 or 3 stove, so it will be illeagle to install in boulder. If you dont pull a permit, then you risk your homeowners insurance. I will have to look at the boulder city list of approved stoves and see. You dont want to do it illeagly, trust me.

 

[MikeS]

Thanks Moderator for the help. Do you work at McGuckin's? I think they are Jutul dealers...

I called Bouder--I am in the county--and also checked the list of stoves currently on USEPA site. I am pretty sure I saw the TDIC listed. I also told boulder county that the EPA list was updated this year and they are not using terms like "pahse 2." Maybe they used to. Boulder county lady called me back and sort of agreed. but her first comment was "must be Phase II." That is why I called her back and said "EPA not using terms like that..."

We will see. might get stuck selling this thing!

Thanks again for all the help. Wed is fine, take your time! I can't move this much cast iron around any faster! than that anyway!

ms

 

[MikeS]

here is a history of the "phased" EPA regs. Don't know how accurate this is, but this stove was manufactrued 5 years after this link thinks phase II was mandated for retail sales...

(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoepareg.htm)

Here is the EPA list updated just last month. it lists both a "model 8 TDIC" AND the "Model Series 8" with the MS-8 having slightly lower particulate emissions.

(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf#search="epa%20wood%20stove%20list")

I should be able to battle the Boulder bureaucrats with these armaments. but "inspector general" may want to see the manuals!

Thanks for the moral support!!

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

good! i wasnt shure. Your right, the boulder inspector will want to see the manual and documentation. You will have to prove what model it is if the tag is gone off of it, that will be challenging.
Yes, i work at Mcgucks, im the FP manager there. I just got my county list, if its listed there they have no problem. Its a matter of proving what you have is on ther list. I will see what i can dig up for you wensday.
Snowing down there yet? its DUMPING hard up here.

 

[elkimmeg]

there were two model Jotul 8 c has a 6" round retrofit cat combustor $85
Jotul 8 TDIC uses a 4/7 combustor $120

www.stovecombustors.com

 

[MikeS]

it has 4 x 7 combustor, and it is certainly a "Model Series 8" as per the EPA list, NOT a TDIC or any of the others.

I don't think I can replace the 25CPSI cat with a 16CPSI for lower head loss--UL would call this a design change.

but I did find a steel-substrate (versus ceramic) cat with higher allowable operating temp and head loss similar to 16CPSI which is "approved equal" to the 4 x 7 unit. if I get desparate or cannot adequately draft without a "super stack" on my roof, i may try this cat. a little pricy at $160, but this cat would be much more rugged physically, and offers 400F more top end against meltdown.

ms

 

[MikeS]

Oh yeah:

Rain (drizzle) only, near Lafayette and Louisville. How far up is this "dumping" happening? sounds like I need to toon up the snowboard!

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

9000' where im at. im not shure how low it is.
Where did you get the manufacture date from? I missed that post. That should be a series 8 if it was made in 97'. The model would be where the manufacture date is, so it should be easy to prove to boulder city.

 

[MikeS]

yes, "model series 8" built 031897. my first and second posts. Thanks again.

if you can get them to email a manual for a "model series 8" then I would be all set.

Is MetalFab one of your chimney brands? If so, I can visit the store and check out the insulation guard and maybe get another stick of pipe...I need to clean and inspect the used one i got, too...

ms

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Yea i carry metal fab, but not 8". it would be a special order. Honestly, it would be better to buy it online or at resource 2000. If i have to buy one stick at a time, my wholsale cost is almost online retail cost. The only way i am competitive on pipe is if you buy what i have in stock.

 

[MikeS]

the stove is a "model series 8" the pipe is 6" ID. no 8" pipe anywhere. Thanks!

I was going to take my Majestic sheet metal fireplace to Resource 2000--but someone came and hauled it off!

thanks again!

 

[MikeS]

sorry, there was 8 FEET of pipe mentioned above--must be where the 8-inch pipe came from. 6-inch-diameter-straight class A pipe, 8 feet long and 4 to 5 feet of double-wall-telescope-black pipe, 6 inches in diameter.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

we keep it in our warehouse, i would have to bring it over, which is not a problem, i just need a little heads up. I need more coffee. I could have sworn you said you had existing 8" chimney, to many 8's flying around in this conversation. what you said was you have 8' of 6". You need a insulation shield and a stick of pipe?

 

[MikeS]

probably, and maybe a roof brace, too, depends upon cost and apparance. all 6". good idea on the coffee. I am gonna get some!
Is it permissible to paint the exterior of chimney pipe? the galvy stuff would paint well, that polished stainless (duratech, etc) might be hard to paint.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I have a manual here, come in and i will make you a copy.

 

[MikeS]

THANK YOU MSG

I will get in touch soon. I will call first, because I want you to quote me some TG chimney parts, too.

first, one important issue with the manual (rememeber, I got an email pdf at the same time you told my you had one also):

manual page 9, floor protection reads "...minimum R value of ,45 which extends...."

I suspect this is a traslation error between Norway and Maine. I assume they mean R = 0.45. In Europe, they would have properly specified R = 0,45 (they use commas like that). Because in the very next sentence they correctly converted to inches and used the USA method of decimal point instead of comma, I CANNOT TRUST this and must assume a typo. Careful specifying of numbers requires the leading 0. How could I be sure they didn't leave off a leading "1" since they are just leaving off the zero? I would probably live with it if they said "...value of .45..." and assume they were just careless in specifying this number (without the leading zero). But having the comma there, no leading zero and then using decimals in the next sentence suggests that I check it out before stacking up the masonry components!

Can you please confirm with Jotul that they want a floor protector with R = 0.45 (0,45) ?

Also, they put the "alternate protector calculations" AHEAD of the standard floor protector (page 8). This tells me they were in a hurry to publish this document (otherwise, the alternate would an alternative to the first thing suggested). The example calculation is for k = 0.84 and 3/4" thick. because this example does NOT have an R value equal to the 0.45 discussed above, I cannot use the example calculation to verify that they are specifying R = 0.45. With R=0.45 at 0.75" thick, k = 1.67. I assume, therefore, that they pulled the example calcs from another manual, instead of re doing it using the values typical of the Model Series 8 (hopefully, R=0.45).

and they got the figure numbers wrong (12B, they meant 13B)

In other words, I HAVE TO ask.

Thanks for everything and sorry to be such a pest....

ms

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

The US manual specs out 3/8th millboard or something equalivent, no r value speced. 1/2 inch i belive is a 1.10. Sounds to me that it needs to be in the r=1 range.
glad i could help.

 

[MikeS]

OK:

the manual i have is in english with NO revision/version number.
So, I will come in and see what you have for a "series 8" manual.
I hoped it would be straight forward. Now it sounds like they published various, hastily prepared manuals with no revision history or publication dates.

I have seen the newer Jotul manuals saying "3/8" noncumbustible material. that is the easiest to achieve. THAT IS WHAT I NEED TO FIND! THANKS!
R = 0.45 is easy with two sheets of 1/2" cement board surpassing this, adding tile helps even more.
the WORST I have seen is where Jotul, for one stove (3CB?) specifies R = 1.1 if you count the mortar and tile, you need 4 sheets of 1/2" cement board and 1/4 inch mortar and 1/4 inch cermaic tile (and an engineer willing to stamp it)

or you could use 13 inches of sandstone (rose flagstone) :ahhh:

 

[carogray]

Just jumping in here, but looking at JØtul's website
Company Information->Worldwide->importers and subsidiaries or distributors there is
USA and Canada
Jøtul North America Inc.
55 Hutcherson Drive
Gorham
Maine 04038
USA
E-mail: [email protected]

Just for the record.

Caroline

 

[spark949]

OK...my son has just bought a condo in NH and it came with a Jotul series 8 stove. I too am looking for a manual for him.
Also, he is new at woodstoves and wood burning. Is there any websites I might send him to for some good woodstove/woodburning tips?

Thanks,
Fred