Jotul 500 or 600

[BERude]

Hi everyone, new to the forum. We are purchasing a single story, 1583 sq ft half log cabin that sits on a crawl space, with little to no insulation, and vaulted ceilings throughout. The cabin sits in the mountains at @7500 ft elevation, winters can see temps at -20f. The cabin currently has a cheaply constructed, old wood stove in the living room that we will replace. We would like to be able to heat with wood as our primary source, not sure if we are being realistic, and are looking at the Jotul 500 and 600. Our wood source will be pine primarily so a cat stove is not on our short list. Looking for some thoughts as to whether we would be better off with the Jotul 500 or the Jotul 600. My husband is concerned that the 600 will heat us out of the house while I'm concerned the 500 is not large enough to get heat to the bedrooms. Thanks in advance for any advise!


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[HisTreeNut]

Jotul makes good stoves.
A good rule of thumb is to go 25% bigger than what you think you need...the whole heat loss thing.
Also, as someone mentioned in another thread, you can build a smaller fire in a bigger stove but it's hard to make larger fires in a smaller stove.

 

[Simonkenton]

Little to no insulation? What year was this cabin built?

Get the 600.

 

[begreen]

Go large with the F600. It will not overheat the place in cold weather. The vaulted ceilings add to the volume to be heated. Add to this cold temps, poor insulation, and perhaps softwood fuel and you will want a large stove. In milder weather just do partial loads of fuel, 5-6 splits and run the stove at a lower temperature.

 

[BERude]

Little to no insulation? What year was this cabin built?

Get the 600.

It was built in 1986. Mostly used as a 3 season cabin in the past. We want to push the envelope!


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[Simonkenton]

Well, I have build 8 custom log cabins including the one I now live in. I am something of an expert on the subject.
Describe the logs. What thickness are they? What shape are they.
Logs are very good insulation if nice and tight and done right. So you ought to have good insulation in the walls, that is a given.
The most important thing is ceiling insulation. Describe the ceiling bitte.
My cabins have exposed rafters and they are decked with 2x6s, and the insulation is above the 2x6s. So it appears that there is no insulation but in fact there is R40.
Maybe you have that in your cabin!

If not, perhaps you could retrofit the cabin with ceiling insulation. Give a good description of that ceiling I might have some useful suggestions for you.
I know it gets plenty cold at 7,500 feet in New Mexico.

 

[BERude]

Well, I have build 8 custom log cabins including the one I now live in. I am something of an expert on the subject.
Describe the logs. What thickness are they? What shape are they.
Logs are very good insulation if nice and tight and done right. So you ought to have good insulation in the walls, that is a given.
The most important thing is ceiling insulation. Describe the ceiling bitte.
My cabins have exposed rafters and they are decked with 2x6s, and the insulation is above the 2x6s. So it appears that there is no insulation but in fact there is R40.
Maybe you have that in your cabin!

If not, perhaps you could retrofit the cabin with ceiling insulation. Give a good description of that ceiling I might have some useful suggestions for you.
I know it gets plenty cold at 7,500 feet in New Mexico.

The logs are D logs, the dimensions are 7 1/4" h X 5 1/2" w

We do not think there is any insulation in the ceiling. We need to investigate further though.

The cabin is 3 bed, 2 bath and all rooms except one bath and the hallway have vaulted ceilings. I'll attach a pic of the living area to give you an idea of the ceiling. Thanks in advance for any advise you can provide!





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[firefighterjake]

Hi everyone, new to the forum. We are purchasing a single story, 1583 sq ft half log cabin that sits on a crawl space, with little to no insulation, and vaulted ceilings throughout. The cabin sits in the mountains at @7500 ft elevation, winters can see temps at -20f. The cabin currently has a cheaply constructed, old wood stove in the living room that we will replace. We would like to be able to heat with wood as our primary source, not sure if we are being realistic, and are looking at the Jotul 500 and 600. Our wood source will be pine primarily so a cat stove is not on our short list. Looking for some thoughts as to whether we would be better off with the Jotul 500 or the Jotul 600. My husband is concerned that the 600 will heat us out of the house while I'm concerned the 500 is not large enough to get heat to the bedrooms. Thanks in advance for any advise!


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I would suspect either stove would work for your needs, but would personally recommend the F600 for the larger size since you mention little to no insulation. I might also suggest eventually adding more insulation if possible . . . and if there is no ceiling fan consider installing one to move the heated air lower.

I would also like to question/point out that cat stoves are perfectly fine for use with pine . . . and in fact, do quite well . . . I might even suggest that cat stoves work better than secondary burning stoves when it comes to burning softwood.

 

[branchburner]

Our wood source will be pine primarily so a cat stove is not on our short list.

To second Jake, pine works fine... so long as it's DRY. Pine in a cat is especially nice in the fall and spring when it is not super cold... get the load up to temp, engage the cat, and get a long slow burn without cooking you out.

One disadvantage w/ pine, whether burned cat or non-cat, is that it tends to burn to ash without really coaling... making reloads kind of a PITA. But you might reconsider, and think about a Woodstock or BK. I just upgraded to an Ideal Steel (same firebox size as my prior F600), and though my wife and I are big fans of the cast iron (Jotul, VC) look, we are both really happy with the way the steel stove looks in the house.

 

[ohlongarm]

Hi everyone, new to the forum. We are purchasing a single story, 1583 sq ft half log cabin that sits on a crawl space, with little to no insulation, and vaulted ceilings throughout. The cabin sits in the mountains at @7500 ft elevation, winters can see temps at -20f. The cabin currently has a cheaply constructed, old wood stove in the living room that we will replace. We would like to be able to heat with wood as our primary source, not sure if we are being realistic, and are looking at the Jotul 500 and 600. Our wood source will be pine primarily so a cat stove is not on our short list. Looking for some thoughts as to whether we would be better off with the Jotul 500 or the Jotul 600. My husband is concerned that the 600 will heat us out of the house while I'm concerned the 500 is not large enough to get heat to the bedrooms. Thanks in advance for any advise!


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Get the 600 but be forewarned it likes wood,and lots of it. A beautiful stove nevertheless,I know several who have them and they all say plenty of heat ,but needs plenty of wood.

 

[tarzan]

As stated by branchburner and firfighterjake, don't shy away from a cat stove due to the pine. Honestly, I would have been hesitant to load the tube stove up with a full load of pine but have no reservations about doing it with the cat stove.

Ofcourse, If you have a longish flue mixed with -20*F weather and seasoned pine you probably should have a pipe damper.

 

[Simonkenton]

Well, that is a good looking cabin, nice looking floors and ceiling.
OK you have 5 1/2 inch thick pine logs, looks like they are pretty tight. Mine is 6 inch pine so we are in the same ballpark. Your walls provide very good insulation.
One thing you ought to do is examine the spaces between the logs. Sometimes you get a little warping.
When it is dark run a flashlight along all of those cracks and have someone outside to see if any light shines through. If so, get some silicone caulk that matches the wall color and caulk any and all cracks, it could add up to a pretty big air leak.
Or, there may be no air leaks in the walls.

Now, let's see if there is any insulation in the ceiling. From the inside, your ceiling looks just like mine with the exposed rafters and decked with pine boards. But, I have R 40 in my ceiling!

Get a drill with a one inch bit. Get one of those flat spade bits, about $7 at Lowes.
Get up there on a ladder inside the house and drill a hole through the ceiling board. Don't do it outside on the roof overhang because there will surely be no insulation on the overhang. That board will either be 3/4 inch thick, or else 1 1/2 inches thick. Just drill right through it.
If there is insulation it probably is foam. Might be pink, might be white or blue. Just drill until you get through the ceiling board and go no deeper.
If you see there is insulation, get a 1/4 inch dowel, or a big 8 inch nail, and shove it into the insulation until it stops. This way you can measure the thickness of the insulation.
Now you have a one inch hole in your ceiling. Buy a one inch dowel rod, cut a 1 inch long piece off of it. Put a little silicone caulk on the side and tap it into place into the hole, until it is flush with the ceiling board, it will look just like a knot hole.
Might be fiberglass insulation up there, you know what that looks like.

Now, if there is no insulation, I would go ahead and try the fierce Jotul out for a winter and see if it works ok.
If not, you can add insulation below the ceiling boards. You would need to use high density foam.
It would be quite a job, I can walk you through it but adding insulation to that house is definitely Plan B.

 

[Simonkenton]

Here is a pic of my ceiling.

 

[BERude]

Wow! Gorgeous place! An well insulated, I'm envious! Lol!


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[BERude]

Well, that is a good looking cabin, nice looking floors and ceiling.
OK you have 5 1/2 inch thick pine logs, looks like they are pretty tight. Mine is 6 inch pine so we are in the same ballpark. Your walls provide very good insulation.
One thing you ought to do is examine the spaces between the logs. Sometimes you get a little warping.
When it is dark run a flashlight along all of those cracks and have someone outside to see if any light shines through. If so, get some silicone caulk that matches the wall color and caulk any and all cracks, it could add up to a pretty big air leak.
Or, there may be no air leaks in the walls.

Now, let's see if there is any insulation in the ceiling. From the inside, your ceiling looks just like mine with the exposed rafters and decked with pine boards. But, I have R 40 in my ceiling!

Get a drill with a one inch bit. Get one of those flat spade bits, about $7 at Lowes.
Get up there on a ladder inside the house and drill a hole through the ceiling board. Don't do it outside on the roof overhang because there will surely be no insulation on the overhang. That board will either be 3/4 inch thick, or else 1 1/2 inches thick. Just drill right through it.
If there is insulation it probably is foam. Might be pink, might be white or blue. Just drill until you get through the ceiling board and go no deeper.
If you see there is insulation, get a 1/4 inch dowel, or a big 8 inch nail, and shove it into the insulation until it stops. This way you can measure the thickness of the insulation.
Now you have a one inch hole in your ceiling. Buy a one inch dowel rod, cut a 1 inch long piece off of it. Put a little silicone caulk on the side and tap it into place into the hole, until it is flush with the ceiling board, it will look just like a knot hole.
Might be fiberglass insulation up there, you know what that looks like.

Now, if there is no insulation, I would go ahead and try the fierce Jotul out for a winter and see if it works ok.
If not, you can add insulation below the ceiling boards. You would need to use high density foam.
It would be quite a job, I can walk you through it but adding insulation to that house is definitely Plan B.

Great information, we will make checking for ceiling insulation a priority once we close. Really appreciate the step by step instructions! Question, we are sitting on a crawl space, should we look at insulating that area as well? Our first thought was insulation in the floor joists but a bit of research proved that to be a bad idea. Most sites recommend insulating the walls to the crawl space instead or encapsulating the entire area. Do you have any tips on crawl spaces?


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[BERude]

I would suspect either stove would work for your needs, but would personally recommend the F600 for the larger size since you mention little to no insulation. I might also suggest eventually adding more insulation if possible . . . and if there is no ceiling fan consider installing one to move the heated air lower.

I would also like to question/point out that cat stoves are perfectly fine for use with pine . . . and in fact, do quite well . . . I might even suggest that cat stoves work better than secondary burning stoves when it comes to burning softwood.

Our initial choice was a BK Princess or Ashford 30 but we moved away from those as we thought the cat could be impacted by the creosote. We've also had dealers tell us that the industry is moving away from cat stoves. We really like the control you get with cats, just not sure if it's the best choice for our situation. We are new to wood stoves so we don't know what we don't know.... But we really are grateful that forums like this exist to help us get this wood stove stuff figured out! I'm actually excited about the idea of heating with wood vs a gas or electric option.


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[BERude]

I would suspect either stove would work for your needs, but would personally recommend the F600 for the larger size since you mention little to no insulation. I might also suggest eventually adding more insulation if possible . . . and if there is no ceiling fan consider installing one to move the heated air lower.

I would also like to question/point out that cat stoves are perfectly fine for use with pine . . . and in fact, do quite well . . . I might even suggest that cat stoves work better than secondary burning stoves when it comes to burning softwood.

We do have ceiling fans and also plan on utilizing one of those nifty stove fans that run by the heat generated by the stove! We initially looked at cats but moved to cast iron radiant stoves based on info provided by dealers and our concern about clogging the combuster up with creosote. Might be a bad decision on our part......


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[Simonkenton]

The code here in North Carolina is that the joists of the crawl space or basement must be insulated.
I think it is R 19 of fiberglass supposed to be between the joists.
Well, that is of little or no value. Heat is trying to rise. In the summer cold air is going down but with little force.
I built my Mom's log cabin up in the Georgia mountains and it is snug and tight with no crawl space insulation.
That pic is of the addition I just did to my log cabin and I did not use any basement joist insulation.

The walls of your crawl space are concrete block, or what? Yeah, at minus 20 with a 30 mph wind that cold air is going to run right through those concrete walls. Might be a good idea to put some foam insulation on those concrete walls. That wouldn't be a big deal, you could glue it, or else you could screw it with concrete screws and big 1 inch fender washers.
You know those blue concrete screws they sell at Lowes? Put a couple inches of foam on those walls wouldn't be a bad idea.
My basement is primarily under ground so I didn't insulate the walls.


The point to keep in mind with insulation is that the heat is rising. The most critical place to insulate is the ceiling. Everything else is secondary.
Oh, if you do find any cracks in the spaces between the logs, be sure to put the caulk inside and outside, create the 'ol dead air space.

 

[branchburner]

Our initial choice was a BK Princess or Ashford 30 but we moved away from those as we thought the cat could be impacted by the creosote. We've also had dealers tell us that the industry is moving away from cat stoves.

You will find quite a few dealers giving misinformation on two fronts:
1) creosote -- contrary to what many say, it has nothing to do with softwood vs hardwood, and everything to do with wet/green wood vs dry/seasoned wood... BK even suggests using wood seasoned a full TWO years
2) cats -- many will suggest the industry is moving away from cats because they are problematic, and they are... for the dealers, who don't want to explain them and who carry many lines of stoves of which few or none are catalytic... the easiest way to prevent potential customers from investigating cats further is to misinform them regarding the actual benefits (many) and costs (few) regarding cat and cat-hybrid technology.

So I wouldn't rule out BK, and I'd consider adding Woodstock to your "maybe" list.

 

[firefighterjake]

View attachment 184500

Here is a pic of my ceiling.

I always love looking at pics of your home. Absolutely beautiful.

 

[firefighterjake]

Our initial choice was a BK Princess or Ashford 30 but we moved away from those as we thought the cat could be impacted by the creosote. We've also had dealers tell us that the industry is moving away from cat stoves. We really like the control you get with cats, just not sure if it's the best choice for our situation. We are new to wood stoves so we don't know what we don't know.... But we really are grateful that forums like this exist to help us get this wood stove stuff figured out! I'm actually excited about the idea of heating with wood vs a gas or electric option.


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HehHeh . . . the dealers all selling secondary burners and not cats almost always say how the cat tech is dying, dead, no longer in use or not as good. You can take the word of folks trying to sell you a non-cat stove . . . or actual cat stove users who have no financial stake in whether you buy a cat stove, secondary burner or a 55 gallon metal drum. While I don't have a cat stove, I've been around here long enough to realize that the tech is still going strong (Blaze King, Woodstock and a few others for example) and many folks that have 'em absolutely love 'em.

And yes . . . heating with wood for some may be nice . . . for others it is a whole other way of life . . . and for others, it's simply a cheap way to heat the home.

 

[firefighterjake]

We do have ceiling fans and also plan on utilizing one of those nifty stove fans that run by the heat generated by the stove! We initially looked at cats but moved to cast iron radiant stoves based on info provided by dealers and our concern about clogging the combuster up with creosote. Might be a bad decision on our part......


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Unseasoned wood and not running the stove properly seems to be the main ways to kill a cat combustor . . . not the creosote or wood.

Now I opted to go with a secondary burner . . . and you certainly are free to do so as well . . . many of us love 'em . . . but a lot of folks also have had good experiences with cat stoves and I figure it's always nice to get the real scoop on how well they work. I'm not really sure you can make a really bad decision whether you go with a cat stove or a secondary burner . . .

Incidentally, ceiling fans = good. Folks that have used the itty bitty fans on the stoves have reported a mix bag of success stories . . . some say they work OK, some say they work great and some say they are not all that effective. Other folks say they move some air . . . while still others say they mostly help to give them guidance in how hot the stove is and when they need to add more wood. So opinions vary, but nearly everyone here reports that the most effective and cheapest way to warm a home and move the heated air is to position a fan (such as a desk fan) on the floor of an adjoining room pointed towards the woodstove as it helps set up an air current loop with cooler air near the ground pushed towards the hot woodstove and then the heated air at the ceiling level moves out.

 

[Simonkenton]

Thank you, Jake. Here is a pic from last January. We do get some pretty good snow here in the NC mountains. I have a big shiny new Jotul Oslo in the corner of that new cabin and it is ready to roar! Come on, winter, make my day.
I just finished the cabin in February, now am back on the road driving the big rig. Gotta earn some money, I spent all my money building that log cabin.
Right now I am in Laredo Texas. You would not have much use for a wood stove in Laredo.

 

[heavy hammer]

I had a jotul 500 in my first house, and I loved it plenty of heat great stove. The house was about 1600 sq feet. We have recently moved and now we have a cat stove in the basement a kuma sequoia, and a pacific energy insert on the first floor. I would not rule out a cat stove, granted I have not used mine yet but there are many here who are very happy with their's. I think which ever route you go will work. Insulation and filling in any air gaps are very important regardless of which stove you pick. Like anything they all have their little quirks, but I think you will be happy with which ever stove you pick. My only advise is go big, as said above a big stove can have a little fire, but it doesn't work very well the other way. Once you get your stove post some pics, I'm sure it will look great.

 

[BERude]

You all certainly have got me rethinking our decision on non-cat vs cat. If going non-cat, we will definitely go bigger, F600. But I think it will be worth our time and effort to re-examine the possibility of a cat. We have two BK dealers in the area, some conversations with them are probably in order. We can't thank you all enough for your input. I will now go back to lurking and researching! Thanks again!


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