Job creation from a 1%er

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
  • Super Cedar firestarters 30% discount Use code Hearth2024 Click here
Status
Not open for further replies.
This whole thread got me thinking of the term "redistribution of wealth" I think it should be great from the 1% point of view. They are doing the "right" things to gain that wealth any redistribution that occurs and it's only a matter of time until the 1% has it again - only compounded a few times. Yet the 1% fight it like the plague or maybe that's just reverse psychology making the poor think they won?

A fool and their money are soon parted will always be true no matter how much money we give them. Don't think the 1% owners of Best Buy and Amazon aren't hoping the gov't starts handing out $600 checks again or maybe even $1200 this time? Where's that money going to go??? A new TV, a $200 pair of sneakers...
 
This whole thread got me thinking of the term "redistribution of wealth" I think it should be great from the 1% point of view. They are doing the "right" things to gain that wealth any redistribution that occurs and it's only a matter of time until the 1% has it again - only compounded a few times. Yet the 1% fight it like the plague or maybe that's just reverse psychology making the poor think they won?

A fool and their money are soon parted will always be true no matter how much money we give them. Don't think the 1% owners of Best Buy and Amazon aren't hoping the gov't starts handing out $600 checks again or maybe even $1200 this time? Where's that money going to go??? A new TV, a $200 pair of sneakers...

the term of "redistribution of wealth" makes sense , the idea is that the movement of money brings a stronger economy as the money is able to "work" its job is quite simply to be spent. by "taking it from the rich and putting it back into circulation" it keeps the money from being just squirrelled away like gold in a lockbox.

it gets its "bad rep' from the pundits who make it sound as though the folks who have money are all evil cause they wont share it. that said the theory of it is sensible. its the mechanics of making it happen that brings about the biggest arguments between the right and the left.
 
Get rid of those mortgage interest rate subsidies. And subsidized education. But bring back that danged government cheese. Love me some cheese.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Frozen Canuck
When did it suddenly become okay to pick out the person who isn't like most of the others and treat them differently?

Monday November 3, 3BC
 
  • Like
Reactions: Frozen Canuck
It was found that workers in the USA were willing to work for less than most any country in the world (granted, this was probably english writing).....I forget the actual figure, but it was something ridiculous where the writer would make about 75 cents an hour.

A seventy five cent an hour raise for hearth.com moderators. Your point is? ;lol
 
Collective answer to the points raised here:


1. The idea that someone on a minimum wage can just acquire a marketable skill to improve his income is highly questionable.
How should someone earning $7.50 the hour sustain himself (rent, food etc.) and be able to attend any school/college? Without help from parents etc. essentially impossible. It also neglects the fact that someone born into poverty went to a crappy school in a crappy neighborhood and will rarely have the grades (SAT scores) to apply for financial aid.

2. Most low wage jobs ARE needed. We need farmworkers, janitors, cashiers, trash haulers… Just saying they are paid low because no one needs them is neglecting reality. And if we even need only half of those jobs we should still pay those people liveable wages. Because otherwise we condone the establishment of an underclass where an individual may advance but collectively that class still needs to exist to provide us with the goods and services we desire.

3. When there is money to pay a better educated workforce then there is money to pay a higher minimum wage. We have about 140 million employed in the US. Total labor income is ~60% of GDP so that puts it at ~$9 trillion. Let’s say 10 million are low wage workers earning about $20,000 per year for a total of $200 billion. Increase their wages by 25% we would need to pay $250 billion. But stop: “There is no money for that”. Ok, they all take the advice here and get an education. Now those 10 million will want a real salary, let’s say $40,000/year for a total of $400 billion. Now, where is that money suddenly coming from?


4. Low wages/unemployment have not much to do with “skills” but are a monetary phenomenon.

Take a simple model economy only consisting of households (HH) and businesses (B). Assume full employment at the outset. Businesses pay wages (W) of 100 that are household income. Households spend their total income on businesses’ products. Thus:

a) B expense = wages = HH income = 100 = HH spending = B income

Now households get unsure about the future and decide to save some (10%) of their income. Thus:

b) B expense = wages = HH income = 100 but HH spending = 90 = B income and H saving = 10.

With only 90 as income the businesses can only pay wages of 90 which leaves them with two options:

Option 1: General paycut; everyone receives 10% less. (lowering of wages)

Option 2: 10% of the workforce gets cut. (involuntary unemployment)

Could the low-wage/unemployed workers change anything about that by acquiring a better education? Had this outcome anything to do with bad job skills? No, in both cases. This outcome was simply a result of the household’s desire to save part of their income.

Let’s spin this model further:

If the businesses feel that future HH spending may be higher they will want to borrow those savings back to keep producing as before. Thus:

c) HH spending = 90; HH saving = 10; B income = 90; B debt = 10; wages = 100 (90 +10)

Now the HHs can maintain an income of 100 while still saving 10. Keep those ratios constant and in the next year we have:

d) HH spending = 90; HH saving = 10+10; B income = 90; B debt = 10+10; wages = 100 (90 +10)

Every year, household spending, business income, and wages stay the same but HH saving and business debt increase by 10. If that sounds too good to be true let’s introduce interest. If that would be an (outrageous) 10% every year the businesses would need to pay an increasing amount to the HHs. First 1, then 2, then 3 and so on. To pay that interest, the businesses have to reduce wages by the same amount. After e. g. 5 years we get the following:

e) Bs: debt: 50; new borrowing: 10; income: 90; wages: 95; interest expense: 5 (10% of 50)
HHs: income 100; wage income: 95; interest income: 5; savings: 50

And with every passing year we get exactly what the paper I linked to earlier (http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/commentary/2012/2012-13.cfm ) describes: A decrease in labor income as % of GDP and an increase in capital income. With other words: A redistribution of income from workers to savers/capital holders leading exactly to the changes in wealth distribution we have seen over the last decades. This causes a steady downward trajectory on wages and/or increases in unemployment. A raise of the minimum wage will not stop that trajectory but it is pretty sad that even this little “band-aid” faces such an opposition.
 
[Hearth.com] Job creation from a 1%er


www.cbpp.org/files/6-25-10inc.pdf‎
 
ohh ok, like Harry Reid aka the senate version. AFAIAC neither are worth a bucket of warm spit
I don't like either, but comparing Boener and his Volcker rule to Reid is a bit silly on this score.
 
I single him out because he's the obstructionist in chief. He controls what comes to the floor
I don't like either, but comparing Boener and his Volcker rule to Reid is a bit silly on this score.

not really, you brought him up as the "obstructionist in chief" which was a political opinion on your part,,having nothing to do specifically with this thread.
Stoveguy just remarked that harry does the same thing in the senate, which is true.

I think both of them should be ran out of the govt jobs that they now have. I also think they should not have the power to vote themselves a raise. That should be included in the general elections,,,decided by the voters every 4 years.

3. When there is money to pay a better educated workforce then there is money to pay a higher minimum wage.
We have about 140 million employed in the US. Total labor income is ~60% of GDP so that puts it at ~$9 trillion. Let’s say 10 million are low wage workers earning about $20,000 per year for a total of $200 billion. Increase their wages by 25% we would need to pay $250 billion. But stop: “There is no money for that”. Ok, they all take the advice here and get an education. Now those 10 million will want a real salary, let’s say $40,000/year for a total of $400 billion. Now, where is that money suddenly coming from?

that money would come from having a job in a profitable company that uses their education to make money,,,not force fed from the gov't as min wage.
 
not really, you brought him up as the "obstructionist in chief" which was a political opinion on your part,,having nothing to do specifically with this thread.
Stoveguy just remarked that harry does the same thing in the senate, which is true.

I think both of them should be ran out of the govt jobs that they now have. I also think they should not have the power to vote themselves a raise. That should be included in the general elections,,,decided by the voters every 4 years.



that money would come from having a job in a profitable company that uses their education to make money,,,not force fed from the gov't as min wage.
That's right. Use of the Volcker rule does nothing. It obstruct an honest up or down vote, so yes really
 
Last edited:
That's right. Use of the Volcker rule does nothing. It obstruct an honest up or down vote, so yes really

and harry won't even let things come up for vote when he does not agree with them,,,so what is the difference? Both/all of them need to go!

I believe the senate and the house are responsible for us needing to talk about the min wage being raised. Everything going on is due to policies made by them. Everything is working good in their world.
 
and harry won't even let things come up for vote when he does not agree with them,,,so what is the difference? Both/all of them need to go!

I believe the senate and the house are responsible for us needing to talk about the min wage being raised. Everything going on is due to policies made by them. Everything is working good in their world.


Thank goodness you tied it all in! I was afraid the mods were gonna have to earn their new, self appointed, 75 cent raise and do the Can Can!
 
Maybe I am just bitter about the 40 something useless votes to overturn the ACA, or the votes to shut down the government. Just inexcusable stuff
I agree, ACA should have been overturned long before 40 votes! I am surprised you feel that way though,,,,,,,

I did not see any vote to shut down the gov't. What was that bill called again? Voting is inexcusable? Hmmmm I like to vote.

We should practice voting on this thread to see what the general feeling is here on raising the min wage. BeGreen,, it is your thread,,would you like a poll? I don't know if it can be added after the fact,,or if you want one. It might be interesting depending on the choices you come up with.
 
Collective answer to the points raised here:
1. The idea that someone on a minimum wage can just acquire a marketable skill to improve his income is highly questionable. How should someone earning $7.50 the hour sustain himself (rent, food etc.) and be able to attend any school/college? Without help from parents etc. essentially impossible.ncial aid.
.

Your assuming college is the only way to improve income. Iv started several businesses and never went to college or had any formal training of any kind after high school. In rural areas like mine there are few jobs to be had that require any college degree.
Most of the jobs are some type of trade or construction. Many income producing skills are self taught and business startups.
 
Collective answer to the points raised here:

4. Low wages/unemployment have not much to do with “skills” but are a monetary phenomenon.
They have more to do with bad trade policies than any monetary phenomenon. When Mfg was booming here in the northeast we didnt have a lot of unemployment and wages were under constant upward pressure as workers had many more choices. North and south dakota has the lowest unemployment in the nation,why ?
SImple: a huge influx of oil and gas jobs, solid middle class incomes lifting all boats. Same monetary policies for my area which is dead job wise, with a high unemployment rate.
 
I agree, ACA should have been overturned long before 40 votes! I am surprised you feel that way though,,,,,,,
.
I finally got to purchase some decent healthcare coverage Because of ACA. Whats more important than americans getting HC ,is it billions for Ukraine, and Egypt .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Frozen Canuck
I finally got to purchase some decent healthcare coverage Because of ACA. Whats more important than americans getting HC ,is it billions for Ukraine, and Egypt .
you could have had decent health care any time you wanted it. You just did not want to pay for it.

The majority will pay more now. I will never get pregnant, but I will own (required by gov't) insurance for it anyway. Waaaayy too many things to list in the min wage thread.
 
you could have had decent health care any time you wanted it. You just did not want to pay for it.

The majority will pay more now. I will never get pregnant, but I will own (required by gov't) insurance for it anyway. Waaaayy too many things to list in the min wage thread.
As someone that will never have kids, but pays for other people's kids school, social services, higher accident rates in insurance, etc, etc- I can only say- so what? Now everyone subsidizes other people's kids via insurance. It's small potatoes compared to other subsidies that people want to ignore, and hopefully it helps someone out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Frozen Canuck
(I will add, that since each dollar spent on the contraception that people complain about saves several in later medical and social welfare dollars, I'm fine with everyone making that wise investment as well. Here's a case where the complainers cannot be social conservatives AND fiscal conservatives on the same issue)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Frozen Canuck
As someone that will never have kids, but pays for other people's kids school, social services, higher accident rates in insurance, etc, etc- I can only say- so what? Now everyone subsidizes other people's kids via insurance. It's small potatoes compared to other subsidies that people want to ignore, and hopefully it helps someone out.
shrug,,,great, you want to pay for everybody else's kids and add on to the pile.
Get out your wallet! Pay for them! Give all your money away until you are all equal.

I bet your money stays in your bank account. Mostly it is "everybody elses" money you want to use, or you would have already volunteered all of yours,,,,,,.

I think if people have kids they should pay for those expenses themselves,,,,or let me decide how many kids they can have,,since I have to pay for them.
 
you could have had decent health care any time you wanted it. You just did not want to pay for it.
.
You better re -read my post i did say Purchase, not free. Matter of fact there are a multitude of co-pays,deductibles and minimum yearly thresholds on top of the monthly premiums. Im fine with that. Or would i have been better off just saying the hell with all that an use the ER revolving door care like most uninsured do? No mention of Billions for Ukraine,Egypt. I guess your OK subsidizing with that.
 
I think if people have kids they should pay for those expenses themselves,,,,or let me decide how many kids they can have,,since I have to pay for them.

Sure you can do that but with one provision: Keep all your money but when you retire you are only allowed to buy what your kids produce and not what other people's kids make. No one needs money but only the goods and services it can buy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Frozen Canuck
Most of those against the ACA are enjoying highly subsidized HC from their employer or are Govt employees. THis is one of those issues where,where you sit depends on where you stand on the issue.
 
When i signed up i didnt see any "free" insurance anywhere on the site. No matter the income level . Only people who get free Govt HC is thru your states medicaid. In fact there is a low income threshhold where if your income is too low you dont even qualify to use the site.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.