Isle Royale - Difficult to control the burn.

[ArsenalDon]

Now I'm curious to what that may be.
You have the floor!

Start with shutting the damper before the the fire enters the home?!

This is simply a matter of making sure all seals are tight...if so then the draft must be an issue. Stoves can go wrong...no doubt, but there are only so many areas that can fail. Are logical air seals tight? is there a welding failure? is the draft correct?

 

[ArsenalDon]

Now I'm curious to what that may be.
You have the floor!

By the way...different operation of this stove than a cat stove

 

[HotCoals]

I'm so not enlightened.
That one damper statement was a little strange though..I'll give you that.

 

[ArsenalDon]

I'm so not enlightened.
That one damper statement was a little strange though..I'll give you that.

Sorry I am not the Dahlia Lama......I am not that enlightened myself.....sorry to disappoint.

 

[northwinds]

I'm not very handy, and this stove is easy for me to operate. The dealer definitely ought to be involved if the original poster is following
the correct procedure for running the stove and can't control the draft. This isn't rocket science. In the thread that the original poster cites,
they found a joint crack in the stove--a manufacturing defect. If the original poster thinks he has a defect in the stove, he's got a new stove
under warranty; call the dealer.

 

[Chuck the Canuck]

It's better to have the damper before the fire instead of after it.
If I have an overfire, I need to choke it out, (before the fire) not after it! (chimney key damper)
Call your local fire company and find out yourself.

Here's my take on what the OP is getting at: he wants to "choke it out, before the fire" as in shut down the incoming air that is feeding the secondaries, rather than starve the fire of oxygen by closing off a key damper.... Sort of like the fella in the "Giving Up" thread (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/giving-up.125280/) who would rather find the intake holes on the stove that feed the secondary air and reduce them with a magnet or some such gizmo....

I think...

 

[northwinds]

Maybe so, but he needs to get to the bottom of why he has too much incoming air. What he is describing is not a common problem for this stove. If I entirely close my primary air down early in the burn, before it hits 600, I can smother my fire and drop the temp quite rapidly. The question is where is the air in his stove coming from? I'm still curious about why he had the door open to get things going. That is not recommended operating procedure. I'm also curious about the temps at which he is starting to close the start-up air and primary air. He made it sound like those controls were closed for the entire burn. Normally, these controls are gradually turned down. More info is needed. Hopefully, he is talking to his dealer today.

 

[fitter9]

I was in almost the same situation as you the first few weeks with my new insert. I'm not going to try and give advise, I'm just going to share my story.
I was doing just fine with 3 or 4 medium splits, when I was filling the firebox full for the night the stove would take off everytime. My stovetop temp was pegging the t-meter at 800.
When the stove was running that hot the bricks on the hearth would get super hot. The hardwood floor 20" from the front of the stove would get real hot too. The lopi freedom manual says I only need 18" to cumbustables, but it made me real nervous anyway.
My stove was burning threw the 3 cu ft box of wood way to fast.
My chimny is 30 ft tall so I thought it was a draft issue for sure. I was also thinking something was wrong with my stove.
I think I read every single post on this site trying to learn how to work the stove. The best thing I learned was no two stoves are a like, (it seems to me that no two fires are a like either. )
To make sure my controls on the stove were working,as soon as my fire was established I closed the air all the way down. Within a few seconds the fire almost went out completely that told me the air controll worked fine and that nothing was leaking air.
I started watching the fire more than the t meter and started backing the air off a lot earlier. I back it a little at a time to slow down the fire. I back it off more once the fire builds back up. It seems I'm fully closed when the temp hits between 450 and 550 and it settles in nice.
It seems it was all operator error. I haven't had an overfire since I learned how to work the stove. Lots of trial and error. Good luck

 

[northwinds]

I was in almost the same situation as you the first few weeks with my new insert. I'm not going to try and give advise, I'm just going to share my story.
I was doing just fine with 3 or 4 medium splits, when I was filling the firebox full for the night the stove would take off everytime. My stovetop temp was pegging the t-meter at 800.
When the stove was running that hot the bricks on the hearth would get super hot. The hardwood floor 20" from the front of the stove would get real hot too. The lopi freedom manual says I only need 18" to cumbustables, but it made me real nervous anyway.
My stove was burning threw the 3 cu ft box of wood way to fast.
My chimny is 30 ft tall so I thought it was a draft issue for sure. I was also thinking something was wrong with my stove.
I think I read every single post on this site trying to learn how to work the stove. The best thing I learned was no two stoves are a like, (it seems to me that no two fires are a like either. )
To make sure my controls on the stove were working,as soon as my fire was established I closed the air all the way down. Within a few seconds the fire almost went out completely that told me the air controll worked fine and that nothing was leaking air.
I started watching the fire more than the t meter and started backing the air off a lot earlier. I back it a little at a time to slow down the fire. I back it off more once the fire builds back up. It seems I'm fully closed when the temp hits between 450 and 550 and it settles in nice.
It seems it was all operator error. I haven't had an overfire since I learned how to work the stove. Lots of trial and error. Good luck

That's a good post. And I wouldn't call it operator error. I would call it learning the combination of your stove and chimney. Sometimes, everything works right out of the box. Sometimes, it take patience and there's a learning curve. Other times, there could be something wrong with an individual stove or chimney or the combination of the two together. It's normal to be nervous when temps get way too high. I don't blame the original poster a bit for that.

 

[jatoxico]

It's better to have the damper before the fire instead of after it.
If I have an overfire, I need to choke it out, (before the fire) not after it! (chimney key damper)
Call your local fire company and find out yourself.

JS you may very well have a defect in your stove so as others are (correctly) advocating you should have someone come check the unit out for leaks.

Having said that I still think you misunderstand the use of a key damper. EPA stoves are manufactured so that they can never be fully "choked down". That is there will be air entering the stove no matter how much you shut the air to them down. If your draft is overly strong the stove can still pull enough air to over fire. That is where the key damper comes in. It is not meant to shut off an already out of control stove, rather during operation it is partially closed reducing draft, giving the operator control of the stove.

 

[begreen]

Exactly. The goal is to never get into a potential overfire situation in the first place. A key damper has helped many here needing to reduce draft.

 

[Jags]

The IR comes out of the box an easy breathing stove. It would not surprise me one bit that a damper might be needed for a tall stack. I have never heard of a damper causing smoke to enter a home.

 

[js156]

Chuck the Canuck understands what I am trying to say exactly.
A good stove should not need a key damper.
In regards to the dealer, after unanswered calls, and an unanswered email showing photographs of my typical fire from start to finish - by taking a photograph every 10 minutes for 100 minutes, and a video clip showing how the flames are blowing sideways I had to call my credit card company on about Wednesday the 26th and open a dispute.
Then, in about 12 hours, they called me on the phone to set up an appointment to come out this Thursday the 6th.
On Friday Feb. 28th I also sent them, and Quadra fire, the same video that I posted. Wouldn't you think that one of them would have called or emailed and said, "Don't use the stove!" Nope.
Also, someone said that I am starting my stove unusually by not using the knob that goes to the back or the lever that goes side to side.
I don't use the knob because the person who installed it told me that he doesn't suggest using it because people forget that it is open. Agree or disagree, this is why I am not using it. As far as the lever, I don't need to open it. I have an overfire (everytime) with it at its lowest setting. I don't need more air.
Thank you all though. Agree or disagree, I appreciate how everyone is trying to help me, so thank you.
I will let you know what comes from it on Thursday. I have to say though, being that they were blowing me off, until I held their feet to the fire, I ain't too trusting just yet. I wish Quadra Fire had contacted me but...not yet anyway.

 

[begreen]

It has little to do with "a good stove". The stove is only half the equation. The flue is the engine of the fire. Common sense says that the same stove put on a 15 ft or a 35 ft chimney is not going to draft the same. Use a stove outside of its design range and it is up to you to control the draft. True a hard drawing stove that requires strong draft might work fine with the tall chimney, but the same stove could be a real pain to use in an average one story home with a 13 ft flue. The IR is an easy breathing stove. It works well with shorter chimneys where a lot of modern stoves won't. If you have a tall chimney, downsize it to 5.5 or 5" or add a key damper to get the draft within spec.

 

[HotCoals]

Really dry wood and cold outside temps add to the chance of over fire also.
Cutting the air sooner after reload is a good idea that somebody brought up.

 

[Jags]

A good stove should not need a key damper.

This simply isn't true.
As BG was pointing out it is pretty difficult for a MFG to design for every possible application. It is NOT uncommon to need a flue damper in the system if the stack is tall.

 

[js156]

This simply isn't true.
As BG was pointing out it is pretty difficult for a MFG to design for every possible application. It is NOT uncommon to need a flue damper in the system if the stack is tall.

Putting a wood stove into a two story house is not an unusual application.
My guess at this time is that it is the stove.
There is nothing in my owners manual that says if installing in a two story house use a key damper. Can you imagine how many stoves they would sell if they did?

Hotcoals, Thank you for the suggestion of cutting the air. I start every fire with the air cut and I still reach 900+ degrees. Something is wrong. Chadihman didn't install a key; he installed a 5700. Thank you for trying to help though. Thank you.

 

[Chuck the Canuck]

This simply isn't true.
As BG was pointing out it is pretty difficult for a MFG to design for every possible application. It is NOT uncommon to need a flue damper in the system if the stack is tall.

I have to agree that some people (or stove set ups) need a key damper. Because of an over active draft, my stove was taking off and over firing practically every time I put a load in it https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/stove-burning-too-hot.125259/#post-1682613). Since I installed the key damper this past weekend (March 1st to be exact) I've been able to keep a nice controlled burn with the key damper and keep things running at an optimal range between 625 and 675 degrees F. I was starting to dread loading the stove because I just knew it was going to want to take off, and I certainly feel a lot better loading the stove now.

Cheers,

 

[begreen]

Most stoves are designed to operate well with a 15-25 ft flue. Has the stove been thoroughly examined by a professional to determine if there are any leaks. Has it been confirmed that the start up air control is closed? What is the average size of splits being burned?

 

[Jags]

Straight from the manual. (Highlights added by me)

...tested on a 6 inch (152 mm) chimney, 12 to 14 feet (420 - 480 cm) high, (includes
stove height) measured from the base of the appliance to
the the top of the chimney (not including chimney cap) .
The further your stack height or diameter varies from this
configuration, the possibility of performance problems exists.

You have a 27Ft tall stack - you are almost DOUBLE the height it was tested to. The accepted method to mitigate this issue is a flue damper.
Your installation is clearly outside of the parameters suggested by the mfg. If you choose to simply blame the stove and not adopt the tried and proven method to compensate for your particular install variation - well, I don't know that I would blame the stove. I really don't know what more to say.

 

[jatoxico]

Well said Jags. Seems to me this thread was always just a vehicle for the OP to rant since most honest attempts to help have been poo pooed. If the draft is outside of spec I guess the installer is to blame. Considering there are better people on this than me, I'm out.

 

[northwinds]

Straight from the manual. (Highlights added by me)

...tested on a 6 inch (152 mm) chimney, 12 to 14 feet (420 - 480 cm) high, (includes
stove height) measured from the base of the appliance to
the the top of the chimney (not including chimney cap) .
The further your stack height or diameter varies from this
configuration, the possibility of performance problems exists.

You have a 27Ft tall stack - you are almost DOUBLE the height it was tested to. The accepted method to mitigate this issue is a flue damper.
Your installation is clearly outside of the parameters suggested by the mfg. If you choose to simply blame the stove and not adopt the tried and proven method to compensate for your particular install variation - well, I don't know that I would blame the stove. I really don't know what more to say.

He is also starting the stove with the door open and both air controls closed until the fire gets going. His only air control is to close the doors. That's not how this stove is designed to be operated. There could be something wrong with the stove but there's no evidence so far that there's anything wrong with the stove. The only thing we know for sure is that he has a tall chimney and that he isn't using the air controls to gradually cut the air. The stove should be checked out, but it wouldn't be on my top 3 list for predicting what might be wrong. (chimney, operation, wood).

 

[Jags]

Not too mention that using the door during startup WILL create higher flue temps and draft than using the proper starting method of the stove.

 

[begreen]

My dad said it years ago, in my sig..

 

[ksc]

I'd have to side with the OP here. He paid for a new stove, a professional install and expected a safe and efficent heater. He didn't get it. Cancelling payment was the right course of action. If this was a diy install then it would be different.