Is Vermont Castings abandoning their customers? No warranties on units in the field?
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stanleyjohn said:
I doubt it. CFM made all of those Century stoves HD and Lowes sold. And HD and Lowe's want the vendor to take care of everything. Now anybody having a problem with them is going to be right up HD and Lowe's tailpipe for that warranty coverage.
Wanna guess how many of those they sold in the last couple of years? With a five year warranty on the stove body.
WOW.
This would be a bad move. Just about any textbook in business management till tell you that the companies reputation is one of its biggest assets. Then again this organization already went South once but i would think they would try to get things right with the second chance. I always had high regard for VC. I just chose to by something else because my wife liked the other stove and it seemed like it should work.
This would be a bad move. Just about any textbook in business management till tell you that the companies reputation is one of its biggest assets. Then again this organization already went South once but i would think they would try to get things right with the second chance. I always had high regard for VC. I just chose to by something else because my wife liked the other stove and it seemed like it should work.
I hope this is not what I've seen with somer of my customers in other industries.
Investment groups seek out companies that are distressed or that they feel they can buy at a discount.
Then the MBA types start managing by the balance sheet with cost cutting, simplyfying the product line etc.
Depending on what the issues where in the first place, this all good management practice, but what any stove buyer should understand is that this company was bought with the intention to sell.
When the balance sheet is attractive the company can be flipped at a handsome profit.
If the warranty stories are true they are a symptom of this short term focus.
Investment groups seek out companies that are distressed or that they feel they can buy at a discount.
Then the MBA types start managing by the balance sheet with cost cutting, simplyfying the product line etc.
Depending on what the issues where in the first place, this all good management practice, but what any stove buyer should understand is that this company was bought with the intention to sell.
When the balance sheet is attractive the company can be flipped at a handsome profit.
If the warranty stories are true they are a symptom of this short term focus.
Has anyone sent an email for an official response from the company? If I was a dealer that is one of the first things I would want before I accepted another dollar downpayment on a stove. That way there is no more guessing and you know.
I've written the company, but no response so far. It would be really nice to get a definitive written policy statement for the VC and Dutchwest lines. The stove season is starting early and it would be nice to see VC selling lots of stoves soon. But this is really holding up the show as for recommending the product.
What is so screwed up to me is that they bought the name and assets and want the name. If you ask most people with a passing knowledge of stoves- they think that VC is synonymous with "quality" based on the reputation from the 70's energy crunch (I think). So- now that people are interested again, they can use the name and new customers might be impressed based on what Dad tells them (if you asked my dad- he'd swear they're the horse to ride based on the VC we owned when I was a kid).
If I owned the company, I think I'd take the long view and honor some limited version of the warantees (mfg defects plus one year operation or something) and "reset" the brand. By that I mean- use the foundry, update castings, manufacture a quality product under a different name, and maybe bring back the VC name when you have a product that you want to stand behind. That way you can "rebrand" VC when the bad taste is out of people's mouths. "VC Classic". LOL
I think the new parent company already has low-end offerings in this space. That and VC parts should do them well while they re-tool on good product.
If I owned the company, I think I'd take the long view and honor some limited version of the warantees (mfg defects plus one year operation or something) and "reset" the brand. By that I mean- use the foundry, update castings, manufacture a quality product under a different name, and maybe bring back the VC name when you have a product that you want to stand behind. That way you can "rebrand" VC when the bad taste is out of people's mouths. "VC Classic". LOL
I think the new parent company already has low-end offerings in this space. That and VC parts should do them well while they re-tool on good product.
99.9% of people that go to a stove store will never even know this saga took place. I am still laughing about the post I saw somewhere else the other day where a woman said they bought a VC stove because they had been making them for over a hundred years. :wow:
Exactly Bro Brat. Not many folks hang out at stove sites.
How often do you buy a stove? What was a good name last time you did (or the "expert" in your family did)?
How often do you buy a stove? What was a good name last time you did (or the "expert" in your family did)?
And most folks first post here goes something like
"Hi! Newbie here. I just purchased a new Framus 4355 Non-Cat Cord Wrecker with gold door, power windows and locks and 35 feet of lead lined chimney for $16,328. Anybody have this stove? Is it a good stove? What size firebox does it have? I bought it from Sammy's Smokehouse. Did I get ripped off?"
After the stove is installed and paid for.
"Hi! Newbie here. I just purchased a new Framus 4355 Non-Cat Cord Wrecker with gold door, power windows and locks and 35 feet of lead lined chimney for $16,328. Anybody have this stove? Is it a good stove? What size firebox does it have? I bought it from Sammy's Smokehouse. Did I get ripped off?"
After the stove is installed and paid for.
BrotherBart said:
The installer who installed my stove has worked in the industry for 30 years, sells high end stoves too.
He had no idea about VC until I told him.
I think I may be one of the ones that got the ball rolling on this thread. I just heard it from a distributor of VC that there would be no warranties on anything up till date. I have no idea if its true. I hope not. My gut tells me it is true though. I spoke with another distributor about it and they had no clue. They seemed surprised I was asking like they knew something, but you never know.
I have two Vermont Casting stoves, both from the early 80's. Both were purchased in the 2000 and 2008, as new. Stored and lovingly maintained by former northerners now living in the South. They found in their plastic fantastic houses a wood stove just "didn't fit".
Their lifestyle choice, my gain.
I drive a '73 VW Thing, '66 BMW motorcycle and live in a house built in 1926. My transportation and heat source take a little more time, but it's worth the effort.
As to Vermont Castings woes... I hope they figure it out. Quality first. Built to last.
Their lifestyle choice, my gain.
I drive a '73 VW Thing, '66 BMW motorcycle and live in a house built in 1926. My transportation and heat source take a little more time, but it's worth the effort.
As to Vermont Castings woes... I hope they figure it out. Quality first. Built to last.
Anybody that wants to see in writing what Monessen negotiated into the Sale Agreement for the certain assets of CFM that included assets of VC can view the whole magilla right here:
(broken link removed)
Go to document number 427. Have plenty of time, beverages and snacks available.
What you are looking for in on page 21 of the exhibit containing the complete text of the Sale Agreement. It says, and I quote:
2.4 Excluded Liabilities
Other than the Assumed Liabilities, the Buyers are not assuming and shall not be responsible for any obligations of the Sellers or the CFM Business (the "Excluded Liabilities"). Without limiting the foregoing, the Excluded Liabilities shall include:
(h) all obligations or liabilities for any return, rebate, repair, warranty or similair obligation related to products manufactured or sold by the CFM Business prior to Closing."
(broken link removed)
Go to document number 427. Have plenty of time, beverages and snacks available.
What you are looking for in on page 21 of the exhibit containing the complete text of the Sale Agreement. It says, and I quote:
2.4 Excluded Liabilities
Other than the Assumed Liabilities, the Buyers are not assuming and shall not be responsible for any obligations of the Sellers or the CFM Business (the "Excluded Liabilities"). Without limiting the foregoing, the Excluded Liabilities shall include:
(h) all obligations or liabilities for any return, rebate, repair, warranty or similair obligation related to products manufactured or sold by the CFM Business prior to Closing."
Just talked to a VC dealer - said the warranties on existing stoves is still up in the air. If you buy a new VC stove now that the deal is done, the warranty is good - said it might change, but not sure how - might be better, might be worse.
freespiritacres said:
Well, BB did the homework and it says that the new company specifically excluded warranty claims in the sale. I suppose they could still honor the warranties as a show of goodwill but my guess is that they are hoping the consumers are ignorant and/or forgetful. I can understand them wanting the assets but why buy the name if you are going to run it into the ground?
I would consider any warranty (now or then) to be worth the paper it's written on and IMO someone would have to be a fool to buy a VC stove at this point. They are other good looking stoves out there.
That's a shame - the VC Defiant is the one that seems to fit our layout, etc. best out of all the stoves I'm seeing. Plus it's still made here in the us.
My personal opinion is that this is just a rumor with no foundation in truth. When they closed the deal they put a ton of "legalese" in the contract, which is standard practice to cover their butts. They are not obligated to honor the warranties, but I seriously doubt they would honor warranties on stoves sold after the company was bought but not for stoves bought before then. I guess we'll find out soon, as summer comes to an end and more people open up and clean out their stoves - when any damage will be discovered. I don't think they covered a whole lot in the past anyway - pretty much any warping or cracking is always blamed on an over-fire.
Elk has said that the current CEO of CFM has unequivocally stated "As long as the doors are open in Bethel we will be honoring warranties"
Anyone can check this by calling 905-819-4777 or 802-234-2300. All warranty work is being honored by the individual dealerships as it has always been (broken link removed) is still up in operation to assist in purchasing parts and helping consumers find dealers where warranty work coverage exists.
I think its going too far to bash vermont castings over rumors. If you want to bash them on bad stove designs or other legit reasons, that's another story...
Elk has said that the current CEO of CFM has unequivocally stated "As long as the doors are open in Bethel we will be honoring warranties"
Anyone can check this by calling 905-819-4777 or 802-234-2300. All warranty work is being honored by the individual dealerships as it has always been (broken link removed) is still up in operation to assist in purchasing parts and helping consumers find dealers where warranty work coverage exists.
I think its going too far to bash vermont castings over rumors. If you want to bash them on bad stove designs or other legit reasons, that's another story...
tradergordo said:
That's what I was thinking, not that I know jack about these things. But seems to me that the language about not being required under the terms of sale to honor warranties would be sort of standard boilerplate in any transaction like this, wouldn't it? It's not a statement of policy, it's a legal agreement for buying the company, and really has zippo to do with the customers.
It really seems like an insane move to refuse to honor warranties at all, certainly if they have any hopes of reviving the brand. OTOH, it would also be insane of them not to come out ASAP with some reassuring public statement of how they plan to proceed with the brand from here, including warranties. They surely know they have a great deal of ground to make up with VC's reputation as it is without adding their own muddling on top of it.
Craig,
Please allow me to second the praise someone sent your way, on your straight-talkin' post. I think it's great that you speak your mind, especially in an effort to help "newbies" not make a poor purchase decision. While it's true that reports are not as yet confirmed, perhaps people should consider how a new V.C. owner might feel if he/she did their research, in part by coming here, and saw zero about it the day before their V.C. purchase, but later found out Craig knew the possibility of V.C. failing to honor their warranties existed, yet kept it to himself? I vote for more information, rather than less, and let the potential buyers at least make an informed decision regarding the possibility of warranty problems.
To the V.C. optimists here, I would say this: sure, it may be just a rumor...however, just because it's "only a rumor" does not mean that it is not, in fact, true. See Merriam-Webster's defintion of rumor: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rumor . It seems that some people may not realize that a rumor could turn out to be false OR true. Similarly, due to media spin, the word "conspiracy" has come to connote "untruth" (or "moonbat-liberal crazy") when in fact, a conspiracy also could turn out to be true (see 9/11/01, as one example of the word "conspiracy" being unjustly "freighted" with the negative connotation of being [allegedly] untrue, when in fact, the "conspiracy theories" may yet be proved to be correct. After all, a "conspiracy" is simply "a secret agreement to commit an unlawful act," just as a rumor is simply "an unconfirmed report." Of course, re: 9/11/01, first, one would have to conduct a real investigation... :bug: .). See Merriam-Webster re: "conspiracy" here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conspiracy .
No offense to any recent VC purchasers intended, but is there a major stove company with more drama swirling around it, in recent years? I don't think so (but if pressed, I would nominate Harman for runner-up). Reports (some from dealers) of significantly-substandard quality in V.C.'s Dutchwest lines, if not in VC models themselves, bankruptcies, etc...are not infrequent.
Full Disclosure: now I'll (again) reveal my strong bias for welded, steel plate stoves: As I've said before, (regarding any bolt-together, cast stove, not just V.C.) who really needs any stove with a number of parts that require periodic disassembly/reassembly with new stove cement, as most (all?) cast iron stoves allegedly do?
But I'm lazy, and perhaps cast iron stove owners are like WOODEN boat owners? Because some people aren't happy unless they own a WOODEN boat, which seems more masochistic and draining than anything short of marriage.
My point in dusting off the old "cast vs. plate steel" can of worms is simply that, if one must have a complicated, cast stove with many individual parts that must be bolted together and sealed with cement that periodically expires (as opposed to welded together, like most plate steel stoves), should not one at least select a manufacturer who is not currently embroiled in bankruptcy/new owners/rumors of wholesale warranty denials?
Nevertheless, the goodwill and name-recognition engendered by the earlier V.C. stoves must have resulted from some really outstanding stoves, because the metric tons of good will this company still enjoys, in some quarters, is pretty astonishing, IMHO, given it's ongoing problems.
I agree with many excellent points here, two of which are:
a) If they're not experiencing (or expecting) excessive warranty claims, then why not honor their outstanding warranties?
b) If there were a dumber marketing strategy than deliberately shirking their warranty responsibilities to their end users, I'm not smart enough to imagine it.
And I would add that if the rumors prove true, and V.C. does default on their pre-sale warranty commitments, what an awful thing to do to the dealers, who must then answer to angry/disappointed customers? And how does this build good relations with their dealers, going forward?
Question: Wasn't it V.C. who, last year, told a Hearth member whose insert collapsed onto his hearth, to go ahead and weld his own (brand new?) stove--while under warranty, rather than V.C. offering to fix it? (And so what if V.C. later did the right thing? That's not "customer service," it's potentially life-threatening dis-service.) I was appalled then (in terms of not honoring their warranty then, and re: potential risk/liability to the stove owner and family). If the current "defaulting on warranties rumor" is true, then wasn't the collapsing insert response merely the "test marketing" of a new "fix it yourself warranty plan" for the customer? Sheesh! Sorry--I'm done--I can't think about it anymore--it makes my head hurt.
Oh...the collapsing insert was a Dutchwest, which I believe was (and possibly still is?) made by V.C.? https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/7196/ If I've got the ownership thing wrong, I do apologize. I thought CFM/V.C. made the Dutchwest line, and now CFM has been purchased?
I hope it all works out for the best, and V.C. survives, warranties intact, with the jobs still on U.S. soil.
(Boat: a hole in the water into which you pour your extra money. Be advised: all purchases relating to boats MUST be in "Marine Dollars!" WOODEN Boat: a waterborne conveyance whose ownership/maintenance costs are logarithmically-greater than those associated with all other known marine construction materials, combined.)
Please allow me to second the praise someone sent your way, on your straight-talkin' post. I think it's great that you speak your mind, especially in an effort to help "newbies" not make a poor purchase decision. While it's true that reports are not as yet confirmed, perhaps people should consider how a new V.C. owner might feel if he/she did their research, in part by coming here, and saw zero about it the day before their V.C. purchase, but later found out Craig knew the possibility of V.C. failing to honor their warranties existed, yet kept it to himself? I vote for more information, rather than less, and let the potential buyers at least make an informed decision regarding the possibility of warranty problems.
To the V.C. optimists here, I would say this: sure, it may be just a rumor...however, just because it's "only a rumor" does not mean that it is not, in fact, true. See Merriam-Webster's defintion of rumor: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rumor . It seems that some people may not realize that a rumor could turn out to be false OR true. Similarly, due to media spin, the word "conspiracy" has come to connote "untruth" (or "moonbat-liberal crazy") when in fact, a conspiracy also could turn out to be true (see 9/11/01, as one example of the word "conspiracy" being unjustly "freighted" with the negative connotation of being [allegedly] untrue, when in fact, the "conspiracy theories" may yet be proved to be correct. After all, a "conspiracy" is simply "a secret agreement to commit an unlawful act," just as a rumor is simply "an unconfirmed report." Of course, re: 9/11/01, first, one would have to conduct a real investigation... :bug: .). See Merriam-Webster re: "conspiracy" here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conspiracy .
No offense to any recent VC purchasers intended, but is there a major stove company with more drama swirling around it, in recent years? I don't think so (but if pressed, I would nominate Harman for runner-up). Reports (some from dealers) of significantly-substandard quality in V.C.'s Dutchwest lines, if not in VC models themselves, bankruptcies, etc...are not infrequent.
Full Disclosure: now I'll (again) reveal my strong bias for welded, steel plate stoves: As I've said before, (regarding any bolt-together, cast stove, not just V.C.) who really needs any stove with a number of parts that require periodic disassembly/reassembly with new stove cement, as most (all?) cast iron stoves allegedly do?
But I'm lazy, and perhaps cast iron stove owners are like WOODEN boat owners? Because some people aren't happy unless they own a WOODEN boat, which seems more masochistic and draining than anything short of marriage.
My point in dusting off the old "cast vs. plate steel" can of worms is simply that, if one must have a complicated, cast stove with many individual parts that must be bolted together and sealed with cement that periodically expires (as opposed to welded together, like most plate steel stoves), should not one at least select a manufacturer who is not currently embroiled in bankruptcy/new owners/rumors of wholesale warranty denials?Nevertheless, the goodwill and name-recognition engendered by the earlier V.C. stoves must have resulted from some really outstanding stoves, because the metric tons of good will this company still enjoys, in some quarters, is pretty astonishing, IMHO, given it's ongoing problems.
I agree with many excellent points here, two of which are:
a) If they're not experiencing (or expecting) excessive warranty claims, then why not honor their outstanding warranties?
b) If there were a dumber marketing strategy than deliberately shirking their warranty responsibilities to their end users, I'm not smart enough to imagine it.
And I would add that if the rumors prove true, and V.C. does default on their pre-sale warranty commitments, what an awful thing to do to the dealers, who must then answer to angry/disappointed customers? And how does this build good relations with their dealers, going forward?
Question: Wasn't it V.C. who, last year, told a Hearth member whose insert collapsed onto his hearth, to go ahead and weld his own (brand new?) stove--while under warranty, rather than V.C. offering to fix it? (And so what if V.C. later did the right thing? That's not "customer service," it's potentially life-threatening dis-service.) I was appalled then (in terms of not honoring their warranty then, and re: potential risk/liability to the stove owner and family). If the current "defaulting on warranties rumor" is true, then wasn't the collapsing insert response merely the "test marketing" of a new "fix it yourself warranty plan" for the customer? Sheesh! Sorry--I'm done--I can't think about it anymore--it makes my head hurt.
Oh...the collapsing insert was a Dutchwest, which I believe was (and possibly still is?) made by V.C.? https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/7196/ If I've got the ownership thing wrong, I do apologize. I thought CFM/V.C. made the Dutchwest line, and now CFM has been purchased?
I hope it all works out for the best, and V.C. survives, warranties intact, with the jobs still on U.S. soil.
(Boat: a hole in the water into which you pour your extra money. Be advised: all purchases relating to boats MUST be in "Marine Dollars!" WOODEN Boat: a waterborne conveyance whose ownership/maintenance costs are logarithmically-greater than those associated with all other known marine construction materials, combined.)
TP - you are veering off in a lot of directions. Like many stove companies (in a sense, CFM IS many stove companies) VC makes both cast iron and steel plate stoves, see:
(broken link removed to http://www.vermontcastings.com/content/products/productline.cfm?category=16&sc=33)
With the newer models of VC cast iron stoves including the Dutchwest NC the parts are strictly bolt & gasket, they are no longer cemented and this is supposed to reduce maintenance, although its possible that the bolts may have to be re-tightened. I agree that welded steel is probably better when it comes to low maintenance, but steel CAN warp, and a welded steel stove may even be more likely to crack than a cast iron stove from expansion/contraction (the gasketed design allows for some small flexibility) particularly in the event of an overfire. I like the fact that I can completely take my stove apart if I have to, and replace a single part.
I also like the cast iron look, and I think all the grooves and curves radiate heat better than the typical plain flat designs of most steel stoves. But if I were buying again right now, I might go with a cheap steel NC-30 which reportedly works well, has very low emissions, big firebox, and is built to last with low maintenance.
(broken link removed to http://www.vermontcastings.com/content/products/productline.cfm?category=16&sc=33)
With the newer models of VC cast iron stoves including the Dutchwest NC the parts are strictly bolt & gasket, they are no longer cemented and this is supposed to reduce maintenance, although its possible that the bolts may have to be re-tightened. I agree that welded steel is probably better when it comes to low maintenance, but steel CAN warp, and a welded steel stove may even be more likely to crack than a cast iron stove from expansion/contraction (the gasketed design allows for some small flexibility) particularly in the event of an overfire. I like the fact that I can completely take my stove apart if I have to, and replace a single part.
I also like the cast iron look, and I think all the grooves and curves radiate heat better than the typical plain flat designs of most steel stoves. But if I were buying again right now, I might go with a cheap steel NC-30 which reportedly works well, has very low emissions, big firebox, and is built to last with low maintenance.
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