is a prius really green?
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- Nov 21, 2005
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We have an early Honda Civic HX, at the time it was better than a hybrid in fuel economy but hard to find. We had no bargaining power we wanted that car, brand new and there was only 2 in all of New England.
You can read about it, it's a gutted civic with more aluminum, a modified more fuel efficient civic engine, and if you opted for the manual transmission not only was it $1,000 cheaper you also got more miles per gallon (we wanted manual). It was slated for something like 35 mpg City/40 mpg highway and we started averaging 37 mpg right off the lot. Like Begreen either we've gotten more efficient at driving or it's "loosened" up we now average 39.2 mpg. It's too bad Honda doesn't make it anymore, being $5,000-$6000 cheaper than the Prius, and no matter which way you want to look at realistic comparisons it's really hard to make $5,000+ of your money back in gas with the Prius (comparing 45 mpg vs. 39.2). Some trips with the Civic we average over 42 mpg but I can't recall ever hitting 43. It doesn't have that new chique I'm a hybrid driver, and it's based on the civic DX which is the cheapest of their line with no luxuries (we're lucky it came with a clock), I think of it as the poor man's wannabe hybrid and, for that means it does very well. Both Toyota and Honda are probably the most reliable cars out there, our Civic HX is real tight.
You can read about it, it's a gutted civic with more aluminum, a modified more fuel efficient civic engine, and if you opted for the manual transmission not only was it $1,000 cheaper you also got more miles per gallon (we wanted manual). It was slated for something like 35 mpg City/40 mpg highway and we started averaging 37 mpg right off the lot. Like Begreen either we've gotten more efficient at driving or it's "loosened" up we now average 39.2 mpg. It's too bad Honda doesn't make it anymore, being $5,000-$6000 cheaper than the Prius, and no matter which way you want to look at realistic comparisons it's really hard to make $5,000+ of your money back in gas with the Prius (comparing 45 mpg vs. 39.2). Some trips with the Civic we average over 42 mpg but I can't recall ever hitting 43. It doesn't have that new chique I'm a hybrid driver, and it's based on the civic DX which is the cheapest of their line with no luxuries (we're lucky it came with a clock), I think of it as the poor man's wannabe hybrid and, for that means it does very well. Both Toyota and Honda are probably the most reliable cars out there, our Civic HX is real tight.
It's interesting how Toyota charges extra for more airbags.
Do they both still charge more for A/C?
Do they both still charge more for A/C?
Well, a more interesting point on Toyota that is frequently ignored is that they don't just well the Prius, but Hilander and Camry.
32/27 for Hilander
40/38 for Camry
40 mpg for a car the size of the Camry ain't bad, and 32 for an SUV isn't bad either. BUT did you know that a SAturn VUE Greenline also get's 32 mpg? And does it for $12,000 LESS than the Toyota!!
o.k., so I don't think the statement that Americans are sitting around doing nothing is correct. But their can't market themselves out of a paper bag.
32/27 for Hilander
40/38 for Camry
40 mpg for a car the size of the Camry ain't bad, and 32 for an SUV isn't bad either. BUT did you know that a SAturn VUE Greenline also get's 32 mpg? And does it for $12,000 LESS than the Toyota!!
o.k., so I don't think the statement that Americans are sitting around doing nothing is correct. But their can't market themselves out of a paper bag.
The Problem with FORD / GM is that in the 90's, they were making most of their money off of the SUVs. So they didn't invest in designing small, fuel efficient cars.
So now they have a viscious cycle:
1) They are stuck in the mindest that SUV = $$$, fuel efficient car = bait to get you to the dealerto buy an SUV.
2) Without the R&D investment, they have to licence a lot of fuel-efficiency stuff from other car companies (they use the toyota Hybred mechanism, for one). And the licensing fees keep the profit margins down.
3) So they don't bother designing good small cars, because there is no money in them
To be honest, I'm not surprised that it was a Japanese manufacturer that created the hybred. In America, we are only now starting to think of dependence on foreign oil as a security threat. in Japan, they have already fought (and lost) a war over oil. They understand.
So now they have a viscious cycle:
1) They are stuck in the mindest that SUV = $$$, fuel efficient car = bait to get you to the dealerto buy an SUV.
2) Without the R&D investment, they have to licence a lot of fuel-efficiency stuff from other car companies (they use the toyota Hybred mechanism, for one). And the licensing fees keep the profit margins down.
3) So they don't bother designing good small cars, because there is no money in them
To be honest, I'm not surprised that it was a Japanese manufacturer that created the hybred. In America, we are only now starting to think of dependence on foreign oil as a security threat. in Japan, they have already fought (and lost) a war over oil. They understand.
My wife and I purchased a 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid in Nov of 05.
While the car was well built and smooth on the road. we saw a best of 46mpg on the highway in the middle of summer. Most of the time we were getting high 30's and in the cold of winter it was nearer 30mpg.
We have sold the car for 1 reason.
it is dangerous on the highway. merging/keeping up with traffic/acceleration all were piss poor and made it dangerous to drive the car in traffic. It was nice but Im not interested in getting run over. around town it wasnt as bad. but still....safety first.
While the car was well built and smooth on the road. we saw a best of 46mpg on the highway in the middle of summer. Most of the time we were getting high 30's and in the cold of winter it was nearer 30mpg.
We have sold the car for 1 reason.
it is dangerous on the highway. merging/keeping up with traffic/acceleration all were piss poor and made it dangerous to drive the car in traffic. It was nice but Im not interested in getting run over. around town it wasnt as bad. but still....safety first.
Hey Rhone, what year is your HX?Rhonemas said:
We have a '95 CX hatch, great little car, daily driver, Cost $11K off the lot in '95. I've tracked every tank thru that car, over 300 tankfuls, average 42.11mpg, stdev=2.6. Love that car. Will run 80mph on hiway without breathing too hard. Too bad they don't make them anymore. Another really neat Honda I would like to have is the Civic VX, a variable valve timing engine tuned for economy, don't make it anymore either. Great little cars without the complexity of a hybrid.
If Honda brings in a diesel I'll give it a very close look.
BeGreen said:
There are now aftermarket kits that allow the Prius to greatly increase it's electric only range. I've read up to 38 miles. That should cover most of peoples daily driving, and the averages I've seen put that car at nearly 100mpg overall if you look at it over time.
I bought a 2005 Cobalt used less than a year old. At the time it was the best mileage "conventional" american built car available. It has a great engine (Ecotech) but the rest of the car is the biggest pile of crap you could imagine. Steering rack is loose (2 years 35k miles), have had a spring fail in one of the rear drums, replaced the rear shocks which were shot - leaking oil. The "paint" on the radio buttons has come off (they are clear plastic with black paint on). The chrome coating on the inside door handles is peeling off (razor sharp). There are intermittant electrical problems with the left headlight and the ignition switch.
I do get relatively decent mileage. Up to 38mpg on highway and 28-30 on very short trips (5 miles one way daily commute).
I find it hard to believe that the one poster said he didn't get 30mpg with the Aveo. I suggest there was a problem with how that was measured/calculated. Several people at work have the Aveo and get 35-40mpg in promarily highway driving. Of course the Aveo is a full import, so one has to see it as almost another Hyundai not a GM vehicle.
Keith
I do get relatively decent mileage. Up to 38mpg on highway and 28-30 on very short trips (5 miles one way daily commute).
I find it hard to believe that the one poster said he didn't get 30mpg with the Aveo. I suggest there was a problem with how that was measured/calculated. Several people at work have the Aveo and get 35-40mpg in promarily highway driving. Of course the Aveo is a full import, so one has to see it as almost another Hyundai not a GM vehicle.
Keith
76,000 miles on the 2004 Prius and not one problem. 46 mpg. lifetime average (not by the computer but by calculation each time I buy gas). I hope GM gets their act together on the Volt electric vehicle. There should be a big market for it, but I hope they also get their act together on build quality and long term reliability. The other issue with a lot of high-milage cars is the lack of space. The Prius being a mid-sized hatch-back gives you a lot of hauling options and it is very comfortable on long drives to see the kids in Ohio.
I have a Hummer H3, I get 19mpg in mixed driving. When I get rid of it, I dont have 100's of pounds of lead to get rid of or replace. The weight of the batteries alone are enough that if you were a business you would have to list your car with the local EPA and fire department through SARA title 3 reporting (over 500 pounds of an extremely hazardous substance).
The dust to dust report is on TOTAL energy used, not vehicle energy used. I get 1/2 the mileage of a Prius but my maintenance costs are lower. Distribution pollutants are less, you know cheaper to send within the USA by train then from 1/2 way around the world by boat etc. althought the batteries do take a full trip plus some - From Canada, to Japan, to China, back to Japan, back to the USA
Dust to dust is a big picture study sorry for all of you that were taken for the Toyota ride. If you were really concerned, you would have purchased the much more recyclable, much higher mileage, much lower cost of ownership SMART car
The dust to dust report is on TOTAL energy used, not vehicle energy used. I get 1/2 the mileage of a Prius but my maintenance costs are lower. Distribution pollutants are less, you know cheaper to send within the USA by train then from 1/2 way around the world by boat etc. althought the batteries do take a full trip plus some - From Canada, to Japan, to China, back to Japan, back to the USA
Dust to dust is a big picture study sorry for all of you that were taken for the Toyota ride. If you were really concerned, you would have purchased the much more recyclable, much higher mileage, much lower cost of ownership SMART car
Troll, you are blowing it out of an oversized exhaust pipe. The Prius is exceptionally low maintenance. Other than oil changes and tire rotations you hardly do anything. Brakes often last greater than 100,000miles. As for recycling, there is a program in place for it, though so far the Prius batteries really seem to stand up. Cabs with over 200K on them are still on the originals. You don't have 100's of pounds to recycle when you get rid of that dinosaur, more like 5,000 lbs. The dust to dust report by the quack in Oregon was just a GM promo doc, no more and hardly factual.
The dust-to-dust report is pure bunk. It's page after page of pure obfuscation about the actual cost of the Prius. Those vaunted trips around the world? They cost on average about 5 bucks total energy. In case you didn't know ocean transport of goods is the most efficient transport there is.
You get less than half the Mileage of a Prius, paid more than the Prius and in 5 years the value of that H3 will be half of what you bought it for. Meanwhile the prius with the same mileage will have held about 80% of its value.
It's not even close to a valid comparison.
As far as maintenance, some interesting things are being discovered as these cars age. Brakes are good for over 60k miles due to the regen braking that occurs at any speed over 7 mph. Several Prius taxis have gone over 200k on the original batteries without a problem. Oil change intervals are bring taken to 10k and beyond by owners who have had oil analysis done and found that the very cool-running engine is very easy on oil. I currently have 81k on mine and have gone to the 10k OCI and have not had any mechanical or electrical problems since new in Nov. 2003. Current resale value on mine is a bit over $15k after a purchase price of $23k - not too bad for a 4 year old car. I suspect that a 4 year old Hummer is worth considerably less.
The world is changing, and some, as always, will not. There will always be Hummers, but I would bet on many less as gas inches toward $5 per gallon.
The world is changing, and some, as always, will not. There will always be Hummers, but I would bet on many less as gas inches toward $5 per gallon.
PAJerry said:
The Hummer's resale value depends on whether you are selling it as a car or as a vacation cottage.
I've got my fingers crossed that someone will make a pure eletric car that's AWD.
Where my house is I need that in the winter or I will end up walking. My commute to work is 26 miles each way also so it would be nice to have like 100 mile range therbouts.
Oh well.....I'll stick with my diesel for now and hope they start making more Bio-D and count on the longevity of the rig to makeup for the higher cost of fuel.
Where my house is I need that in the winter or I will end up walking. My commute to work is 26 miles each way also so it would be nice to have like 100 mile range therbouts.
Oh well.....I'll stick with my diesel for now and hope they start making more Bio-D and count on the longevity of the rig to makeup for the higher cost of fuel.
I've run some b15 in my VW tdi but am a little nervous about it since I don't think the quality may be uniform, plus you have a lot to lose if your injection system gets messed up.
With the new VW diesel coming out (now in the summer of 2008!) I don't think I'd be a first adopter in running biodiesel. Wait and see how it works.
VW recommended 10k mile synthetic oil changes on my vintage TDI and I've done that for all its current 210k miles.
With the new VW diesel coming out (now in the summer of 2008!) I don't think I'd be a first adopter in running biodiesel. Wait and see how it works.
VW recommended 10k mile synthetic oil changes on my vintage TDI and I've done that for all its current 210k miles.
keyman512us said:
You know what. When I first read this I took it for a bit of a rant Yet when you look at it, really look at it closely its about as it gets to the truth of the matter. Just like any other crime all you have to do is simply "FOLLOW THE MONEY" and it will lead to the culprit. As this expenditure and waste of lives goes ceaselessly onward chasing whatever boogeyman , Saddam, Ben Laden or whoever, fill in the blank with whoever is convenient, it goes on all the same. The rich (or more lately megarich) they be gettin a lot richer a lot faster. Blame that on the boogeyman.
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