I didnt mean the stove itself isn't efficient. I guess I meant why are the stove on such a short reload time/ high burn rate to heat 1100sqft if the house is reasonably insulated/ tight? I had a non-epa stove before my Princess and that was on 8 hour reloads. Same setup/ chimney and was shocked when the princess went to 24 hour cycles.
is a cat stove really worth the hassle?
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Ohhhh, totally my bad. I thought you were heating 1100sqft of a single level ranch.
What happened to the Regency, I forget...just worn out? Do you run just one stove at a time, and only downstairs?
Will you keep running the Princess, or are you waiting for the right stove to become available to you, then replace the Princess with that one?
I've thought for a long time that the BK's design, with the heat shields inside the firebox, allows the cat to burn longer by keeping the firebox/cat temp higher at low burn rates, but that they become a liability when trying to get more heat out of the stove at higher burn rates, not allowing radiant heat from flames to reach the sides of the box, and it's instead intercepted by the shields and lost up the flue.
The inner shields may also play into the operation of the thermostat; Not being a stove engineer, I don't know.
When I post this basic theory of mine, you'd think that a few of the more nerdy owners would offer their musings, even if they're not stove engineers either. But I've heard only crickets, unless I missed those posts along the way. 😴
One who does fully understand how the stove is designed to operate is the BKVP but he's remained silent as well, perhaps feeling that it's wiser to allow the mystique of the "magic moon dust" theories to prevail. 😏 In any event, it seems obvious that, as in most other things, tradeoffs are necessary. In the case of the BKs, high heat output has apparently taken a back seat, as the EPA numbers indicate.
And I think bholler's place is on a ridge, exposed to unimpeded winds. 💨 🥶
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Nothing. The opportunity to try a princess came up for free and I happily took it. I do like the stove allot. The even heat is fantastic.
Yes I only run one stove at a time this house doesn't need 2.
When I find a good deal on an interesting stove I will get it and try that. I usually try to do it every 5 years or so.
Nevins MHP
New Member
I think it depends on the stove. Most newer cat designs are far superior to the original designs from twenty years ago. The Buck Model 91 is a good Cat stove and qualifies for the 30% tax credit. I also like some of MF stoves units, but they have been harder to get. Caution on the Buck: It takes an 8" chimney. This makes it a good choice for replacing an old stove in an 8" pipe, but the cost of 8" chimney is way up.
Wasn't the buck 91 designed over 30 years ago with a few tweaks for 2020? Not saying the 91 is a bad stoves but it one of the earlier stoves. I work on a few of them and they seem to work well. But are kind of a pain to work on and don't seem to have the turn down of some of the other cat stoves available. But they can really crank out BTUs
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Ashful
Minister of Fire
Can't speak for BKVP, but representing the "nerdy owners", I'd just say don't confuse lack of interest or conviction with any grand conspiracy.
I think you nailed it, here. I'm into sailing, and newcomers to the hobby always ask which boat is "best". A misguided question if there ever were one, as every boat is a compromise, you can only choose the balance that suits your needs most of the time. Stoves are no different, albeit with infinitely fewer variables and consequences.
Easy Livin’ 3000
Minister of Fire
Fair enough, and if we keep getting winters like this one, cat stoves' advantage becomes more pronounced. I'm seeing signs of life that shouldn't be stirring for at least another month.
But, the far greater up front investment for the cat stove's still hurt$. I was absolutely thrilled with payback period for the value tube stoves.
Never a thought that owners were part of a "conspiracy of silence" orchestrated by the cabal, and certainly not complicit in any disinformation campaign by the Cognizanti...unless there's a subliminal message encoded in those cricket chirps! 🦗 😆
Not quite catching your drift with the "lack of conviction" part... 🤔
The goal of a nerd's quest, it seems to me, is to learn as much as possible about the object of one's nerd-dom. Anyone having a "lack of interest" in how their stove actually does what it does is no stove nerd in my book. 🤓
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Ashful
Minister of Fire
Shh... "they" are listening. The withering fox slips the coop at midnight. Use decoder 'E'.
It means that, unlike me and you (my verbose friend), many here who might have a SWAG on the theory may be less likely to come forth with it, out of lack of certainty on the subject.
Fair statement!
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Yeah, there don't seem to be many inexpensive cat stoves which work well enough to really bring out their advantages. If shopping budget stoves, I don't think you're going to beat non-cat tech, there are just more non-cat options with reasonably good performance at lower prices.
But on the flip side, is a BK or Woodstock really much more expensive than any equivalent high-end non-cat? How do they stack up against Pacific Energy or Jotul, in terms of pricing on premium models?
In terms of ROI, it's been long enough that I forget my numbers now, but I'm pretty sure I had my two new BK's paid off with just over one year's savings in oil. Something like 14-16 months, if I recall correctly. I was getting 180+ gallon deliveries every week, before installing these stoves.
From what I’ve been seeing Blaze King and Woodstock stoves are pushing $4k and similar sized Jotul and PE are $1k cheaper. Then the cheaper bang for your buck stoves are another $1k less.
At least we can take heart that the dastardly bass turd is withering! 😏
Hey, what can I say, I also nerd the word. 😆
ROI aside, a stove is a long-term investment; I say spend a bit more to get durable build quality, features that make the stove a joy to operate, look at, or whatever your priorities may be. If you divide the extra amount paid over the life of the stove, you'll look back and say it was a good investment. Heck, my stove could last virtually forever; It's all cast iron and stone, and any internal parts that eventually wear out will be available if and when I need them. If you weigh the cost vs. having to buy another plate-steel stove if the first one eventually wears out, then you've got a whole 'nother ROI equation.
One cat-stove $$ exception was the Dutchwest convection. They were decent quality, and also relatively cheap. I still have the one in my sig, as a backup stove. It may be back in service, if we add a room here and I tap into the other side of the chimney which appears to have a dummy flue I could use. I could be a two-stove guy, like you! 😏 I don't have your thermal mass to deal with, but pound for pound I'd put this house's heat-sucking ability up against all comers. 😆
I seldom regret buying quality; That could be the reason I have no money left! 💸 😆
I think the T5 was a little over $3K, three years ago. I'm guessing it has probably gone up another K...
Speaking of which, in addition to the my "value" bourbon, Wild Turkey 101, 1.75 liter, I sometimes pick up a 750ml. Wild Turkey Rare Breed. That jet fuel has gone from $45 to $70, over the last couple of years! 🦃 🥃 😖 But it's 116.8 proof, so there's that.
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Uhhh I see plenty of cast stoves with major cracks or warped components that aren't worth fixing. And stone definitely cracks. The fact is no matter what the material is every stove if used full time is going to have a limited lifespan. Most are in the 25 year range if not abused.
Yeah, I didn't edit in time.. softened my "wear out" statement a bit..
Sure, of course you've seen cracked cast iron stoves in your line of work.. lotta knuckleheads out there that don't know how to treat a stove. You've also no doubt seen as many if not more trashed plate-steel stoves.
That said, even though some stones on my stove don't look "prime cut," I bet it easily lasts more than 25 años. Now, I might not last that long.. 😏
Easy Livin’ 3000
Minister of Fire
One year payback is fantastic for infrastructure. I suspect this is not close to the case for most folks. I think mine was about two years, because I did all the work and didn't have to build a chimney or buy class A, and got an excellent value stove on clearance, out of burning season. We turned on the gas boiler twice last season, and twice so far this season. Partially a function of the size and efficiency of the space being heated.
I doubt that many folks starting from scratch even do roi analysis, but it was important to me. Well, I say important, but I'd have done it even if it took 25 years. But, I'd have been less thrilled. What else am I gonna do with all this wood?
I agree wholeheartedly that higher end tube stoves require a similar investment to the good cat stoves. I went back in and edited my comment to add the word "value" because I had your exact thought. If apples to apples, price wise, it would be a much tougher call for me.
The perfect view of the fire would be tough to give up on, now that I'm used to it. I lived with the black smudge view offered by the VC Resolute glass for 20 years, and staring at the black smudge view of a cat would feel a little like moving backwards to me.
I doubt that many folks starting from scratch even do roi analysis, but it was important to me. Well, I say important, but I'd have done it even if it took 25 years. But, I'd have been less thrilled. What else am I gonna do with all this wood?
I agree wholeheartedly that higher end tube stoves require a similar investment to the good cat stoves. I went back in and edited my comment to add the word "value" because I had your exact thought. If apples to apples, price wise, it would be a much tougher call for me.
The perfect view of the fire would be tough to give up on, now that I'm used to it. I lived with the black smudge view offered by the VC Resolute glass for 20 years, and staring at the black smudge view of a cat would feel a little like moving backwards to me.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Do note that when I called out 14 - 16 months, that was for two stoves alone, and I got a pretty good buy on them (I think it was $2900/ea for two Ashford 30's with fan kits included). I had my chimney liners done a few years earlier, for my Jotul Firelights, so those liners had already paid for themselves. My only install cost for the Ashford 30's was a few bits of double-wall pipe for one of the stoves, as placement was slightly different than the Jotuls, cheap enough that I don't even remember the cost.
ratsrepus
Minister of Fire
ratsrepus
Minister of Fire
ratsrepus
Minister of Fire
Not according to the latest JD Powers owner reports. Top luxury car brands did not fare well.
So I started looking at the EPA certified stoves, both the current 2020 list, then the list after checking the box including older stoves out of production.
Not sure why they would tweak the 91; The Buck 91 Bay I was burning at my MIL's had 1.2 gm. emissions according to the old EPA test. Maybe they wanted to switch to the cord wood test option for whatever reason, and that necessitated a tweak? Where did you hear that
The output numbers seem all over the board, when they got to choose for the new tests, crib wood or cord wood. But overall the output numbers look to be higher in the new tests with cord wood.
BTW, that 91 Bay also tested at 8800 BTU low burn; That's pretty low. But I couldn't turn mine down as low as I wanted, owing to the air control slider plates not sealing as tightly as needed (right slider.) The design of their system, it seemed to me, could allow for some variance when assembled at the factory. One Buck owner had a very simple solution; remove the rod that holds the two primary air plates, and bend it slightly over your knee so that the plates fit tighter to the air inlet holes. Unfortunately I never get that done before she sold the house, and the stove stayed. I had come up with a different solution. It helped but it needed refining. The single boost air plate (left slider) sealed its port pretty well, on my particular 91.
I hesitate to ask the Buck dealer here if they were tweaked; He struck me as a know-it-all that didn't actually know all that much. I tried to tell him last year that the federal tax rebate was going up to 30% this year, but he told me I waswrong. I told him to look it up, but I doubt he ever did.
Hmmm, the Woodstock IS doesn't look to have gone up all that much, but the AS more substantially, if I'm remembering the old prices right.
You were paying like $550 a week to heat that place (using $3/gal price??) Good grief!! 😲
If you get cat scratch fever, you won't need a stove either.. you'll be hot as hell!🔥😏
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