Is a Baby Bear right for my garage?

[Lampwick]

Hey everybody,

First, thanks in advance. Forums like these are a godsend, especially for newbs like me--I know next to nothing about wood stoves, never owned one or installed one, tho I have spend time using one or two and I have an open hearth fireplace in my house, which I use regularly.

I'm considering a Baby Bear for my detached garage: 340 square foot, slab floor, block walls, 7.5' ceilings but with a small vaulted section, and not a wisp of insulation anywhere. I use it as a shop space currently. Would a Baby Bear be too much for this space?

Here's the one I'm looking to buy:

I see that it's recommended for 900-1250 square foot space (according to specs posted by Coaly (thank you)) but I'm not sure how to factor in the lack of insulation or the vaulted ceiling. (I intend to insulate at least the ceiling at some point, but probably not for at least another season.) Would I roast myself out? Would I have to constantly tend smaller fires? Any guidance is much appreciated.

And two more questions:
~is $550 a good price for this fella? Apparently got new firebrick, and comes with some amount of pipe, plus a "half a pickup's worth" or firewood.
~Any recommendations for loading it into my truck if I'm working by myself?

Thanks again.

 

[kborndale]

Technically it is illegal to put a stove in your garage in the USA. Not saying don't do it, just realize that if something were to go terribly wrong your insurance company would not be paying.

 

[coaly]

You won’t roast yourself out with no insulation and a higher ceiling than 8 feet.

1000 square feet was an average heating requirement for Seattle Washington back when R-11 was common in 2x4 walls with an 8 foot ceiling.

Prices are what they are. Days of finding them for 100 or 2 are limited. The rest of the stuff with it makes it a ok deal.

If you can remove brick easily, also remove doors to lighten it up. Using a couple 2x6 boards for a ramp, lay it on its side and “walk” it up the ramp by yourself. Otherwise keep it on wheels such as a hand truck or furniture dolly on flat surfaces. Stairs are the same as loading and off loading with ramp.

You can also use a 2x6 ramp board inserted into the vent pipe as a lever to move it around, or tilt up onto a furniture dolly easily. Lever and wheels!

 

[Lampwick]

Technically it is illegal to put a stove in your garage in the USA. Not saying don't do it, just realize that if something were to go terribly wrong your insurance company would not be paying.

Thanks for the heads up, I didn't realize that. I'm seeing that it's typically banned outright in areas where vehicles or gasoline may be stored, and for shop spaces it's often banned but sometimes allowed if certain requirements are met, such as having it 18" off the floor and having some kind of permanent obstacle installed around it, to keep it from being knocked into. Does that jibe with your understanding?

 

[Lampwick]

You won’t roast yourself out with no insulation and a higher ceiling than 8 feet.

1000 square feet was an average heating requirement for Seattle Washington back when R-11 was common in 2x4 walls with an 8 foot ceiling.

Prices are what they are. Days of finding them for 100 or 2 are limited. The rest of the stuff with it makes it a ok deal.

If you can remove brick easily, also remove doors to lighten it up. Using a couple 2x6 boards for a ramp, lay it on its side and “walk” it up the ramp by yourself. Otherwise keep it on wheels such as a hand truck or furniture dolly on flat surfaces. Stairs are the same as loading and off loading with ramp.

You can also use a 2x6 ramp board inserted into the vent pipe as a lever to move it around, or tilt up onto a furniture dolly easily. Lever and wheels!

Good intel, thank you!

 

[stoveliker]

Thanks for the heads up, I didn't realize that. I'm seeing that it's typically banned outright in areas where vehicles or gasoline may be stored, and for shop spaces it's often banned but sometimes allowed if certain requirements are met, such as having it 18" off the floor and having some kind of permanent obstacle installed around it, to keep it from being knocked into. Does that jibe with your understanding?

Some places allow it even if it goes against fire code. In Canada it's okay if 18" up (because gasoline vapors stay low).

If you don't store gasoline in it and consistently call it a shop (or even wood working shop), I'd do it.

 

[coaly]

Thanks for the heads up, I didn't realize that. I'm seeing that it's typically banned outright in areas where vehicles or gasoline may be stored, and for shop spaces it's often banned but sometimes allowed if certain requirements are met, such as having it 18" off the floor and having some kind of permanent obstacle installed around it, to keep it from being knocked into. Does that jibe with your understanding?

The bottom of firebox elevated 18 inches from floor and protective bollards are Canadian restrictions where garage installation is not prohibited.

US uses NFPA-211 as the national Standard;

2.2.3 Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in any location where gasoline or any other flammable vapors or gases are present.

12.2.4 Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in
any garage.

Many still do, assuming all liability. It is not recommended to install a solid fuel burning appliance in a attached garage affecting the insurance of the insured structure.

 

[Lampwick]

The bottom of firebox elevated 18 inches from floor and protective bollards are Canadian restrictions where garage installation is not prohibited.

US uses NFPA-211 as the national Standard;

2.2.3 Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in any location where gasoline or any other flammable vapors or gases are present.

12.2.4 Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in
any garage.

Many still do, assuming all liability. It is not recommended to install a solid fuel burning appliance in a attached garage affecting the insurance of the insured structure.

Copy that. If it was an attached garage, I definitely wouldn't chance it. But I never have vehicles in there, and I intend on it being used solely a wood shop. I appreciate everyone's time and input, thank you!

 

[burning VC]

i don't know where you are, but just like Volatile Chemicals, Flammable Liquids, Gasolines, Fuels etc....cannot be stored near open flame(wood stove, etc)

Wood Shops are EXPRESSLY EXPLICITLY prohibited from WOOD BURNING HEAT, or other open flame.

My community has twice had Furniture Factorys explode from dust in AC vents, just static charge set it off.

When i was a 12yo, my friend Tim was playing in his Dad's woodshop while we two others played the new NES Mario Bros' home game.....(Dad was a furniture plant manager...around here in wNC, everyone was a carpenter)
when the basement side Tim was in exploded.

He hit a nail with the blade, threw a spark, lit some dust and when he stomped the ember, the entire side of the basement went off like you would expect a fuel air combustion would...

locally, two men injured when a detached metal building lit the propane heat pilot light while they were addressing a leaking propane tank?...

Causation not the same or even related to your scenario.
The OUTCOME was plausibly the same as your scenario.

 

[stoveliker]

I cannot find where firecode prohibits this.
What's your source?

 

[burning VC]

I like to know stuff.
It's considered a combustible material.

Link to HEARTH>COM thread(Use the search function, said nobody ever, anywhere, ever)

Post #12 from Begreen! guy.....
An appliance shall not be installed in a location where a corrosive atmosphere, flammable gas or vapour, combustible dust, or combustible fibres may be present."

"...the wording clearly prohibits a solid-fuel-burning appliance within a garage that is being used for what would be traditional vehicle storage purposes. It is for this same reason that some insurance companies will not provide coverage if a solid-fuel-burning stove is installed within a garage."

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[stoveliker]

Your home has combustible fiber and dust in the air.

I understand dust explosions.
I think a home owners wood working shop doesn't get there, and I don't see evidence of code prohibiting installation in there.

 

[stoveliker]

Icc says no can do above 2500 sq ft. That creates sufficient dust to be a risk.
A home owners woodworking shop generally doesn't reach that.

Digital Codes

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.

codes.iccsafe.org

 

[burning VC]

Your home has combustible fiber and dust in the air.

I understand dust explosions.
I think a home owners wood working shop doesn't get there, and I don't see evidence of code prohibiting installation in there.

I do NOT have combustible fiber and dust in my air.

I can walk around with a candle(or FLAMEthrower) and not light dust in the air.
It's not at a concentration that will combust, or ignite.

Sawdust is combustible. Explosive. Potentially and historically deadly.

It will kill you, and destroy the entire structure, and kill those around the structure.

Sawdust explosions are the most dangerous type of explosion, a fuel-air bomb.

The video shows the outcome,
the initiation can be a spark,
throwing a breaker,
blowing a light bulb,
tripping over a wood block
plugging in a drop cord,
lightning strike...
...

Or shutting the door on a wood burning stove.


If you can show me combustibles in my air, in your air........PLEASE show me these ....it will be easy to prove...shoot a quick video with your phone for me, showing this 'combustible fibers in the air'.

 

[bholler]

Thanks for the heads up, I didn't realize that. I'm seeing that it's typically banned outright in areas where vehicles or gasoline may be stored, and for shop spaces it's often banned but sometimes allowed if certain requirements are met, such as having it 18" off the floor and having some kind of permanent obstacle installed around it, to keep it from being knocked into. Does that jibe with your understanding?

Those requirements are Canadian code and don't apply in the usa

 

[stoveliker]

I do NOT have combustible fiber and dust in my air.

I can walk around with a candle(or FLAMEthrower) and not light dust in the air.
It's not at a concentration that will combust, or ignite.

Sawdust is combustible. Explosive. Potentially and historically deadly.

It will kill you, and destroy the entire structure, and kill those around the structure.

Sawdust explosions are the most dangerous type of explosion, a fuel-air bomb.

The video shows the outcome,
the initiation can be a spark,
throwing a breaker,
blowing a light bulb,
tripping over a wood block
plugging in a drop cord,
lightning strike...
...

Or shutting the door on a wood burning stove.


If you can show me combustibles in my air, in your air........PLEASE show me these ....it will be easy to prove...shoot a quick video with your phone for me, showing this 'combustible fibers in the air'.

My point is this. You do have combustible fiber in your air in your home. Just not at a concentration that is dangerous.
The same turns out to be the case for small wood working shops. ICC code recognizes that a small shop doesn't produce enough dust to be a concern,and hence stoves are only prohibited for shops over 2500 sq ft.

I can write the same about gasoline that can explode and kill you etc. and show videos about folks pouring gasoline on fires they can't start resulting in burnt faces and arms etc. But that doesn't mean that every use of gasoline will result in death and destruction. Only in some conditions beyond certain thresholds. The same has been recognized for sawdust.

 

[burning VC]

My point is this. You do have combustible fiber in your air in your home. Just not at a concentration that is dangerous.
The same turns out to be the case for small wood working shops. ICC code recognizes that a small shop doesn't produce enough dust to be a concern,and hence stoves are only prohibited for shops over 2500 sq ft.

I can write the same about gasoline that can explode and kill you etc. and show videos about folks pouring gasoline on fires they can't start resulting in burnt faces and arms etc. But that doesn't mean that every use of gasoline will result in death and destruction. Only in some conditions beyond certain thresholds. The same has been recognized for sawdust.

There are no trees here, only a deciduous forest.

Airborne Dust is not combustible, because it's not at a COMBUSTIBLE level. It will NOT ignite, thus not combustible.
Sawdust will ignite. Explode.

ICC code, gasoline explosions are deflective interjections,


imho 'certain conditions' are met by enclosing a woodshop in a 340sq ft area 7ft ceiling.

.....flour, wooddust, coffee creamer....

I was just putting in .02, Code Warrior.


Down here in the nwNC foothills we built furniture in our factories for generations. We've lost people to dust explosions at work, and in home shops.
It's a danger I just wanted to mention...especially with personal experience of a 'clean' woodshop damn near killing Tim with me in same house.


I truly didn't expect anyone to argue the particulates in ambient air might explode on us...

 

[stoveliker]

Whatever.
You said it's prohibited. I said "nope" and provided the evidence.
You say dust is combustible, I say only above a concentration, and it's been recognized that that doesn't normally get reached in small shops.
Then you go all caps and start yelling. I only gave examples of my points.

I am sorry you went through that with Tim.

Feel free to do as you wish. I only provided background to the OP, telling that stoves combined with fuel vapors is prohibited in the US, but under certain conditions not in Canada, and that a wood shop is fine here.

Have a great day and be safe and warm.

 

[burning VC]

Again, i said SAWDUST is combustible dust, you added Airborne dust is combustible dust.

I again, said it might be Local Ordinance, but never the safest idea, after second thoughts.

And I originally gave reference to Begreen's
Post #12 from Begreen! guy.....
An appliance shall not be installed in a location where a corrosive atmosphere, flammable gas or vapour, combustible dust, or combustible fibres may be present."


The objective of complex conversation is nuance, inflection, intent and meaning to transmit ideas.


My only disagreement with everything you've said, it's just drowning out what i was suggesting.

Sawdust is NOT combustible dust in your opinion?
Airborne dust is!
Got it.

I'm sorry if capitalizing 2 words for emphasis means I'm 'going yelling',
and 1 word in this post additionally.
I mean, those two words weren't even in the same sentence?
I'm really sorry I went Beast Mode with my intensity? and volume.

 

[stoveliker]

Sawdust is not combustible at low enough concentration is what I've said all along. The same argument as your dust in home argument...

 

[burning VC]

you said i have combustible dust in my air.
I'm actually the one who replied, NOT at concentrations levels to combust........post #14

Its nice you agree with that....
but suggesting until you have 2500sq foot woodshop it's not dangerous is foolhardy.


Most everything after that to me is a strawman.

 

[bholler]

you said i have combustible dust in my air.
I'm actually the one who replied, NOT at concentrations levels to combust........post #14

Its nice you agree with that....
but suggesting until you have 2500sq foot woodshop it's not dangerous is foolhardy.


Most everything after that to me is a strawman.

Yes you have combustible dust in your air. Everyone does the point he was making is that it is only dangerous once it reaches a concentration where it can combust. This is true of many different types of dust. And yes I agree a solid fuel burner in a woodshop can be extremely dangerous. I would say more so than in a garage.

 

[burning VC]

Sheesh.
I said exactly that, first, and wasn't supported before you agreed with the position i was making, just not how i said it,
or that i said it.


Trying to turn it around as if i didn't say exactly that is underwhelming.


I can explain it to you, but i can't understand it for you.

com·bus·ti·ble /kəmˈbəstəb(ə)l/
adjective

1. able to catch fire and burn easily.

Ambient airborne dust doesn't catch fire and burn easily around my land.
How many deaths a year arise from this?

saw·dust /ˈsôˌdəst/noun

1. powdery particles of wood produced by sawing.

Doesn't require dust to be airborne to ...Just be a pile of sawdust.
Combustible Dust.

I was saying i can light a pile of sawdust or a cloud of it.


the original point of contention was that I considered Sawdust to be a Combustible Dust, and Ive been on an island here as i've described ambient dust vs. the level of sawdust expected to be in a woodshop?

The other conversant said woodshops under 2500sq ft, regardless of containment, filtration should be super, duper safe because it's not in the code.

I don't know where it went White Rabbit after that..


Here are some combustible dusts, imho.
Flour
Sugar
Coal
Wood(even if powdery from a saw or grinder)
Grain


airborne particulates are not even all flammable.

noncombustible dust,
pot Ash.
sand...red clay..

here's a good example

Talc is a naturally occurring mineral, mined from the earth, composed of magnesium, silicon, oxygen, and hydrogen. Chemically, talc is a hydrous magnesium silicate with a chemical formula of Mg3Si4O10(OH)2. Talc has many uses in cosmetic products and other personal care products

Talc dust is not explosive.
However, dust explosions can occur when fine dust particles are dispersed into the air and become concentrated enough to ignite.

Explanation

• Flammability: Talc is non-flammable and non-explosive in its solid form. However, when dispersed into the air as fine dust, it can become combustible.
  
  
• Ignition: The small particles of dust have a large surface area exposed to oxygen, which can make them ignite if exposed to a spark, flame, or static discharge.
  
  
• Concentration: Dust explosions can occur when dust particles are suspended in the air at the correct density.
  
  
• Confinement: Dust explosions require confinement for the explosion to occur.
  
  
• Accumulation: Dust accumulations can create conditions for a dangerous explosion.

Is sawdust plausibly flammable. Yes.
Is ignition plausible in a woodshop. Yes without wood burning heat even.
Can 340sq woodshop plausibly have a concentration at correct density? Yes.
Is it plausibly confined? Yes.
Significant accumulation plausible? Yes.

i hope OP has enough info to consider, opposing viewpoints, and makes the decision best for himself, and permissible in his area.


1 I don't consider ambient air dust combustible by definition.
I haven't seen any vids yet showing this phenomena.

2 I don't need assistance to determine sawdust is plausibly ..... flammable dust, combustible dust, and explosive dust.

Apparently more than one of you disagrees with both those statements to a degree.

makes sense if you are not attacking the original position you then claim yourself.

 

[kborndale]

This thread sure turned to garbage.