Insulate liner or not

[bholler]

Amazing that the more professionals I speak to about insulation on the liner we keep getting different opinions about performance value (not talking about fire clearances only performance ). So just for fun I called a handful of liner company's today and asked if they do any testing on insulated liners vs uninsulated at different temperatures (regions or zones) for performance, draft or creosote reduction. There response was that the only written data your going to find from our testing is clearances for fire safety we do not test for the affect of draft or creosote.

So if anyone can produce some actual written test results pertaining to performance of insulated liners vs unisulated I would Love to see them.

No written test results i know of but i have years of experince and can tell you insulated performs better

 

[brenndatomu]

So if anyone can produce some actual written test results pertaining to performance of insulated liners vs unisulated I would Love to see them.

I know I have read, here on Hearth, about people that have pulled uninsulated liners to insulate them...that's probably about the best performance review your gonna get...no I don't have a link, sorry...but I know its here somewheres

 

[Squisher]

No written test results i know of but i have years of experince and can tell you insulated performs better

As a sweep I can confirm this to be true too. Just from cleaning various systems the difference is plain to see.

But beyond that I have two liners in my own interior masonry chimney. One insulated, and one uninsulated. The insulated liner is around 6-7' shorter but the taller chimney has two 90's so they are fairly equal. The insulated chimney outperforms the uninsulated and stays cleaner. They are the stoves in my signature too so the same company and burning on the same wood with the same operator. IMO the insulated is a vast performance improvement even with a interior masonry chimney which is superior in performance to a exterior masonry chimney because it's entirely within the home. People often say that interior masonry doesn't need to be insulated for performance, well IMO there is performance to be gained still with insulation on interior masonry chimneys. My insulated liner also is duraliner and it's rigid insulated with flex on the end and a flex to oval adapter after that and all flex insulated as well.

 

[HomeinPA]

Insulating a liner IMPACTS chimney performance but that is not the determining factor on IF a chimney should be insulated. It has to do with UL listings, clearance to combustibles, manufacturer's specs and CODE (which means if you install it and it's wrong and there's an issue....YOU'RE responsible.)

Insulation is required on virtually all stainless steel liners for solid fuel appliances the entire length of the flue. IF the chimney meets all codes and requirements in the area, including but not limited to clearance to combustibles, condition of flue liner tiles and mortar joints, structural concerns....., some manufacturers will allow the installation without insulation. SOME. Since there are precious few masonry chimneys that meet ALL code requirements a chimney professional will install insulation to zero-clearance specs.

 

[bholler]

Insulating a liner IMPACTS chimney performance but that is not the determining factor on IF a chimney should be insulated. It has to do with UL listings, clearance to combustibles, manufacturer's specs and CODE (which means if you install it and it's wrong and there's an issue....YOU'RE responsible.)

Insulation is required on virtually all stainless steel liners for solid fuel appliances the entire length of the flue. IF the chimney meets all codes and requirements in the area, including but not limited to clearance to combustibles, condition of flue liner tiles and mortar joints, structural concerns....., some manufacturers will allow the installation without insulation. SOME. Since there are precious few masonry chimneys that meet ALL code requirements a chimney professional will install insulation to zero-clearance specs.

I agree completly. And safety is first and formost. But the performance gains are nice as well

 

[Mark8]

Great feedback and personal experiences being shared, I liked the comparison of two stoves in the same house with insulated and uninsulated and being able to compare a difference in performance. Feedback from chimney sweeps physically seeing a difference from daily hands on experience and being able to compare insulated vs uninsulated and seeing the difference in the creosote buildup. Professional years of experience on the subject.

The reason I brought up this discussion was that sometimes companies do side by side comparisons and laboratory testing and was just wondering if there was any documented testing data that was available that gave verifiable proof in performance gains, but your hands on experience is good enough for me.

Thanks for sharing you knowledge and personal experiences

 

[black smoke signals]

A chimney liner that is not insulated will not draw as well due to the colder gases near the top of the flue. We know what cold air does and those bricks and terracotta liners at the top are exposed to cold air.

 

[Squisher]

Here is a picture I took earlier in the year. Both stoves were running. You can see snow right on the top plate of the insulated liner.

 

[electrathon]

I was talking about this issue (insulation) with our building inspector and he told me that he has never seen an insulated liner and that there is no reason to do it. Not saying that he is correct, just what is going on in this part of the country. When I installed my liner I was told to not insulate it.

 

[bholler]

I was talking about this issue (insulation) with our building inspector and he told me that he has never seen an insulated liner and that there is no reason to do it. Not saying that he is correct, just what is going on in this part of the country. When I installed my liner I was told to not insulate it.

Just goes to show how much you should trust inspectors to catch anything. The codes are there in the book plain as day. They just dont look. Most we talk to dont know anything about the required clearances to combustibles either.

 

[Mark8]

Just goes to show how much you should trust inspectors to catch anything. The codes are there in the book plain as day. They just dont look. Most we talk to dont know anything about the required clearances to combustibles either.

I don't have a code book, can you tell us if these codes apply to every state in the United States, or do different states have their own codes they follow.

 

[bholler]

I don't have a code book, can you tell us if these codes apply to every state in the United States, or do different states have their own codes they follow.

To my knowledge all states follow irc in some form. Some states have exceptions to certain things and some follow older versions but i have yet to hear any that dont follow the sections on chimney construction clearances and lining materials.

 

[bholler]

I do know for a fact that OR where electrathon is from does go by that code.

I dont know about CA you can easily check what code applies to you though

 

[electrathon]

The inspector I was talking to has worked in many different counties in Oregon. Many inspectors sub and fill in neighboring areas.

 

[bholler]

The inspector I was talking to has worked in many different counties in Oregon. Many inspectors sub and fill in neighboring areas.

He was still wrong.

 

[Squisher]

Yes. Up here it's the same. The code is plain as day and many many 'inspected, passed, and certified' installations just simply don't meet code.

Up here the AHJ(authority having jurisdiction) so your local building inspector has the ultimate say. And if they said no insulation is fine I'd ask for it in writing. Also of note a building inspector up here assumes zero liability. They are not held responsible for even blatant misses or being wrong.

 

[bholler]

Yes. Up here it's the same. The code is plain as day and many many 'inspected, passed, and certified' installations just simply don't meet code.

Up here the AHJ(authority having jurisdiction) so your local building inspector has the ultimate say. And if they said no insulation is fine I'd ask for it in writing. Also of note a building inspector up here assumes zero liability. They are not held responsible for even blatant misses or being wrong.

Same here they have final say but just because they missed it does not mean it meets code. They can give you an exemption in writing if they want. But if they do they then take on the liability. They are not liable in any way for missing something.

 

[HomeinPA]

The inspector I was talking to has worked in many different counties in Oregon. Many inspectors sub and fill in neighboring areas.

I go to brand new construction or recently completed homes and have found more than one code violation that should have been plainly visible to the moron code inspector when the house was built and they gloss over this stuff like it's nobody's business. And when it is pointed out to the homeowner the response is usually like yours - "The code inspector said it was ok" or some variation of that. I tell them what I'd tell you, I don't care what the code inspector says - I can walk you out to the truck, pull out the 3" thick code book and point out chapter and verse that will clarify everything I'm telling you. And the kicker is that nobody has any recourse against these idiot inspectors. They are completely held harmless for these type of failures.

 

[Mark8]

I go to brand new construction or recently completed homes and have found more than one code violation that should have been plainly visible to the moron code inspector when the house was built and they gloss over this stuff like it's nobody's business. And when it is pointed out to the homeowner the response is usually like yours - "The code inspector said it was ok" or some variation of that. I tell them what I'd tell you, I don't care what the code inspector says - I can walk you out to the truck, pull out the 3" thick code book and point out chapter and verse that will clarify everything I'm telling you. And the kicker is that nobody has any recourse against these idiot inspectors. They are completely held harmless for these type of failures.

Unfortunately the majority of people have this false impression that their government is keeping them safe with all these rules and regulation, but the sad fact it's just a big money making bureaucracy with employees who show up to work for a paycheck and a pension and are never held responsible for following the rules, and that's why the whole system is broken because all government officials and employees are never held accountable. Rules and regulations only keep people safe if they are actually followed.