Insulate liner or not

[Mark8]

I called a handful of fireplace dealers in California and asked if they insulate their liners when installed into a brick chimney and they all said no it's not necessary in California because it doesn't get cold enough.

Any opinions.

 

[Mbcik]

I called a handful of fireplace dealers in California and asked if they insulate their liners when installed into a brick chimney and they all said no it's not necessary in California because it doesn't get cold enough.

Any opinions.

Great question. I’m wondering the same thing myself. We live near Portland OR and we don’t get many days below freezing. When I asked the installer about this, he said they never install insulation.

 

[robk]

I’m no pro, but it’s not that much additional cost to line it, so I would.

But depending on where your are in California, it might not be needed. But how much are you saving by skipping?

 

[bholler]

I called a handful of fireplace dealers in California and asked if they insulate their liners when installed into a brick chimney and they all said no it's not necessary in California because it doesn't get cold enough.

Any opinions.

They are wrong outside temps have absolutly nothing to with insulation requirements. Did they even check for clearances to combustibles?

 

[Doug Morford]

You could probably, like many things, get away just fine with no insulation. But insulating will probably make your life easier long term. During startup from a cold stove and chimney, even though your climate isn't too cold, that brick chimney takes a while to heat up and will keep your flue temps lower. If you insulate you'll get better draft, especially at startup, and will need fewer chimney cleanings.

 

[Mark8]

Ok, educate me some more. If you have an all brick chimney do you have any clearances to maintain.

If I don't have the room to get an 8" round insulated liner down a brick liner I will need to go with a different shape liner like rectangle and that drives the cost up considerably. That's why I'm asking.

Is there any disadvantages to insulating a liner?

Once you have the original brick chimney capped off, aren't those temps inside that closed off chimney going to heat up quickly and continue rising because the heat has nowhere to escape acting like insulation for the liner.

I'm not trying to cut corners, just trying to educate myself.

 

[Mbcik]

Thank you Mark. That’s exactly what my installer said too! In fact I’m going to the store now to schedule the installation.

 

[yooper08]

Like bholler said, outside temps having nothing to do with it. Insulated liners are there to protect combustible material around the chimney structure. He'll correct me if I'm wrong here, but interior chimneys require 2" of clearance to combustibles and exterior ones require 1", and that's assuming the chimney itself is up to code.

The biggest factor of insulation is protecting the house in the case of a chimney fire.

There's really no downside to insulating. For one, it's a safety issue. Second, it can improve performance.

 

[Mark8]

Like bholler said, outside temps having nothing to do with it. Insulated liners are there to protect combustible material around the chimney structure. He'll correct me if I'm wrong here, but interior chimneys require 2" of clearance to combustibles and exterior ones require 1", and that's assuming the chimney itself is up to code.

The biggest factor of insulation is protecting the house in the case of a chimney fire.

There's really no downside to insulating. For one, it's a safety issue. Second, it can improve performance.

So insulation is really about code and clearances, so let's say you have your clearances then if you live in California where the temps don't get down to freezing is insulation that much of a factor or benefit for performance, I'm not talking about code clearences anymore im talking about performance factors, California temps vs Minnesota temps. Is the cost of insulation worth the benifit. Isnt your brick chimney being capped going to retain the heat anyway.

Why would you need a 1" clearance on an outside chimney, isn't brick fireproof.

Chime in here : bholler

 

[bcrtops]

Cheapskates & lazy installers!
I cannot imagine any reputable installer saying what is reported in this thread!

Besides the code requirements that bholler is constantly harping on.................there is the incredible difference in performance & the development of creosote in a chimney that is properly insulated & one that is using air for insulation. An insulated chimney will draw much better & most likely never have a creosote problem. Cannot say the same for an air insulated only chimney -- may work, but why not just do it right from the get go & eliminate any possible issue!

 

[rox3406]

The brick is fireproof yes. But the wood it is touching isn’t. The heat can transfer right through the brick and that is where the problem is.

 

[bholler]

So insulation is really about code and clearances, so let's say you have your clearances then if you live in California where the temps don't get down to freezing is insulation that much of a factor or benefit for performance, I'm not talking about code clearences anymore im talking about performance factors, California temps vs Minnesota temps. Is the cost of insulation worth the benifit. Isnt your brick chimney being capped going to retain the heat anyway.

Why would you need a 1" clearance on an outside chimney, isn't brick fireproof.

Chime in here : bholler

Yes brick is fireproof. But it also transfers heat very well which is why code calls for the clearance. But fact is most chimneys dont have that clearance and in most cases it is difficult to confirm them. So we insulate every liner we do. And yes capping tge chimney around the liner will help hold heat in. But it doesnt stop that heat from transfering through the masonry so it doesnt keep internal temps up well

 

[Mark8]

Cheapskates & lazy installers!
I cannot imagine any reputable installer saying what is reported in this thread!

Besides the code requirements that bholler is constantly harping on.................there is the incredible difference in performance & the development of creosote in a chimney that is properly insulated & one that is using air for insulation. An insulated chimney will draw much better & most likely never have a creosote problem. Cannot say the same for an air insulated only chimney -- may work, but why not just do it right from the get go & eliminate any possible issue!

So from what you guys are saying this company who installed my liner did not install it to code because they used Duravent Duraliner that is double wall with insulation between the walls and the pipe says it's zero clearance, but the 60" flex was never insulated and when they flexed the pipe to the flue connector it was touching the side of the brick chimney towards the house side.

 

[black smoke signals]

 

[Mark8]

View attachment 219946

The pipe is really nice quality, I did order a 10' chimney insulation kit from Rockford Chimney Supply to insulate the flex if I go to install the liner again. I priced DuraLiner in 8" oval and almost had a heart attack

 

[bholler]

So from what you guys are saying this company who installed my liner did not install it to code because they used Duravent Duraliner that is double wall with insulation between the walls and the pipe says it's zero clearance, but the 60" flex was never insulated and when they flexed the pipe to the flue connector it was touching the side of the brick chimney towards the house side.
View attachment 219943 View attachment 219944

Correct. Dura liner says in their instructions to insulate the flex section. And sell insulation kits for it.

 

[black smoke signals]

Question How does the installer prevent tearing the wrap on the way down to the stove?

 

[Mark8]

Question How does the installer prevent tearing the wrap on the way down to the stove?

Good question.


Abrasion resistant, hope its tear proof. Lol

 

[black smoke signals]

I was told the same story about not needing insulated liner. I’m thinking most dealers are not educated like bholler is spending more money scares buyers away glad we have bholler on board.

 

[black smoke signals]

There are a handful of stove dealers here I visited all of them all said not needed! I thought well your the pro and your going to do the install in case of fire read there fine print

 

[bholler]

Question How does the installer prevent tearing the wrap on the way down to the stove?

The stainless mesh covering the insulation protects it. You can also use preinsulated

 

[Mark8]

The stainless mesh covering the insulation protects it. You can also use preinsulated

Got it. Thanks

 

[Mark8]

There are a handful of stove dealers here I visited all of them all said not needed! I thought well your the pro and your going to do the install in case of fire read there fine print

This is the exact reason I do all my own work, I take the time to research how to do things correctly and I take the time to do things right. Unfortunately I was working at the time and was very busy so I said what the heck I'll leave the install up to the professionals, WRONG. you think I would learn because every time I call a so called pro, I get a hack job and Then i spend twice the money to fix their mess.

 

[yooper08]

What I did is bought all of my materials and then hired someone to do the install. I honestly believe I knew more about what needed to be done technically, but they had experience I don’t have. Told them exactly how I wanted it done and would check it along the way. That way if they wanted to battle me, it became a question of whether they wanted the job or not.

 

[Mark8]

Amazing that the more professionals I speak to about insulation on the liner we keep getting different opinions about performance value (not talking about fire clearances only performance ). So just for fun I called a handful of liner company's today and asked if they do any testing on insulated liners vs uninsulated at different temperatures (regions or zones) for performance, draft or creosote reduction. There response was that the only written data your going to find from our testing is clearances for fire safety we do not test for the affect of draft or creosote.

So if anyone can produce some actual written test results pertaining to performance of insulated liners vs unisulated I would Love to see them.