Installing wood stove in old ZC space

[BKVP]

Even if the fireplace says you can't? And if yes does that mean your company assumes the liability of that fireplace?

Of course not, we never would suggest any action contrary to another manufacturers instructions.

 

[Poindexter]

I am thinking pellet. I pulled up the USFS energy guide, 1.90/ Therm for NG is roughly the same as $240/ cord for oak, 259/ton for pellets, 6 or 7 cents per kwh for electric or $2.18/gallon for #2 oil.

At prices that low already, payback is going to be prolonged. I spent a little time looking for wood pellets online in the Bay Area, but have to move on now.

 

[bholler]

Of course not, we never would suggest any action contrary to another manufacturers instructions.

Good I was just wondering because you didn't mention the fact that the vast majority of zc units don't allow anything to be installed in them

 

[Jacklumber]

Ashfull thanks for analyzing my heating needs. I've been looking at heat requirements upside down based on home size as opposed to outside temperature. Good point about stove size v alcove size too.

Regarding alcove height clearance, I found a reduced clearance requirement for non-combustible alcove. I came across this Lopi stove which funnily enough is called the 'Answer'.

I attach a pic of the relevant page, which says that the combustible alcove requirement of 84" is reduced to 6" for non-combustible alcove

(broken link removed to http://www.lopistoves.com/TravisDocs/100-01166.pdf)

I take the point about the heebie-jeebies regarding a demolition begreen. I'm going to see if I can get the blueprints from the county clerks office. It may give details on the chimney build.

 

[BKVP]

Good I was just wondering because you didn't mention the fact that the vast majority of zc units don't allow anything to be installed in them

The "vast majority? I've think old units like Marco the disclaimer was quite common. Many of the fireplaces I've seen at Expo the past few years have no such labeling or manual notifications. Would you mind pm me the models you're familiar with that pro prohibit such installs? I know it's a lot to ask but it will be very helpful. Appreciate your expertise.

 

[bholler]

The "vast majority? I've think old units like Marco the disclaimer was quite common. Many of the fireplaces I've seen at Expo the past few years have no such labeling or manual notifications. Would you mind pm me the models you're familiar with that pro prohibit such installs? I know it's a lot to ask but it will be very helpful. Appreciate your expertise.

No need to pm the only ones that I have encountered in the field that do allow it are the newer heatilators. If more new ones are now allowing it that is great. But it doesn't change the fact that almost everyone I have been asked to install an insert or stove in prohibits the use of any unapproved accessory. I really hope that changes because I would like to help.those customers. But it is rare that I can do anything but a complete replacement. I am really interested what units are coming that allow the install of stoves or inserts and what standard are the combinations tested to? Did ul finally come up with one?

 

[begreen]

New Superior fireplaces state that an insert is allowed if the mfg. lists their fireplace as tested for their product.

 

[bholler]

New Superior fireplaces state that an insert is allowed if the mfg. lists their fireplace as tested for their product.

Thanks. I am glad manufacturers are starting to address the issue. I really do feel bad telling people I can't do anything. That won't change what is already out there but at least the new stuff will be different.

 

[Jacklumber]

I thought I would update this thread as the project progresses. Since the last post here I've been jumping the hoops with local building regs and code requirements. The process of researching all the requirements in terms of chimney specification, potential big issues when removing the Factory fireplace, what monsters one will find behind it.

I managed to source a pdf of the old FMI 42GC after a techical expert there sifted through their archives. Its not anywhere to be found on their site. Being pre 1990, I most probably have a UL103, steel double wall, which could maybe be ok with Duraflex SS Factory-Rebuilt Reline Kit which they say will bring it up to UL 1777 HT code compliance. Not holding my breath on that one, need to actually see the chimney to be sure. Managed to get the original blue print building plans of my house from microfilm at the county, shows drywall going around the outside perimeter of the alcove but not across the front which is better than drywall all the way up the front I suppose.

Amyway, this weekend I'm going to drill a small hole in the mortar between the bricks on the mantle and use an endoscope camera I picked up on Amazon for about $20 or so.

Having prepared all these plans to show the county next week, I am now probably going to change them. An insert will save a lot of bother. And I am being seduced by the 20 hour plus burn times of the BK Sirocco insert. I once had a car called a Sirocco. Never stopped breaking down. (Wife prefers it to Ashford. Also the surround dimensions of the Ashford doesn't work.

I'll let you know what I find with the endoscope. Once we know exactly what we're dealing with, then I can start planning on what needs to be done to the gapping hole in my house in order for it to pass code and take an insert. (When I say planning I mean me throwing rooky questions at the great minds on this forum).

Would have loved to have a free standing stove like the Lopi Rockport, but sometimes you have to go with your head and not your heart.

 

[Jacklumber]

The issue with the proposed idea is that it is untested. In order for this to work the brick facade would need to have been mounted on a non-combustible surface with non-combustible framing. The odds of the current installation having this construction are very slim if not nil.

I drilled a hole in the mantel of the ZC fireplace and used an endoscope camera to see if the front was lined with sheet rock. The house building blueprints did suggest that there wasn't any sheet rock behind the brick frontage above the firebox opening.

The endoscope shows in this video I made (link below) that the front is lined with sheet rock. So I don't have any clearance required for a stove in the alcove :-(

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These endoscopes are only about $25, so well worth the money.

So is a modern ZC fireplace my only option as begreen suggested? The Fire Xtrordinair 42 Apex is the only modern ZC that's 2020 EPA compliant with a rating of 0.69 grams per hour, better than most pellet stoves.

The whole brick facade will need to come down. I plan to do much of the heavy lifting but not the install itself.

Innovative Hearth Products support said the old fireplace is UL 127. Maybe the chimney could be relined with a DuraFlex SS Factory-Rebuilt Reline Kit?

Does anyone foresee any problems with this new plan that I should consider? Also, let me know your thoughts on the photoshopped design. The hearth needs an R-value of 1.0.

 

[BKVP]

I drilled a hole in the mantel of the ZC fireplace and used an endoscope camera to see if the front was lined with sheet rock. The house building blueprints did suggest that there wasn't any sheet rock behind the brick frontage above the firebox opening.

The endoscope shows in this video I made (link below) that the front is lined with sheet rock. So I don't have any clearance required for a stove in the alcove :-(

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These endoscopes are only about $25, so well worth the money.

So is a modern ZC fireplace my only option as begreen suggested? The Fire Xtrordinair 42 Apex is the only modern ZC that's 2020 EPA compliant with a rating of 0.69 grams per hour, better than most pellet stoves.

The whole brick facade will need to come down. I plan to do much of the heavy lifting but not the install itself.

Innovative Hearth Products support said the old fireplace is UL 127. Maybe the chimney could be relined with a DuraFlex SS Factory-Rebuilt Reline Kit?

Does anyone foresee any problems with this new plan that I should consider? Also, let me know your thoughts on the photoshopped design. The hearth needs an R-value of 1.0.


View attachment 201839 View attachment 201840

Not that it matters broadly, but please do not compare the emissions from one technology to another. You may not realize the test methods, fuels and required set up for lab testing are in no way comparable. Within just the wood stove/insert realm, there are differences in test fuel sizes and weights. Such slight changes can make comparisons difficult. Making a comparison of a fireplace to pellet stove is a greater leap.

 

[Jacklumber]

please do not compare the emissions from one technology to another... Making a comparison of a fireplace to pellet stove is a greater leap.

Isn't this precisely what the EPA are doing? EPA bunches Pellet stoves, wood burning stoves and inserts into the same certification spread sheet. It would stand to reason that the lay person (or permit decision maker) would use this rating as a criteria for particle emissions. (Mine did anyway), I would have assumed that when making this list, the EPA would have created a level playing field, comparing apples with apple unless specifically stated. Otherwise they are being very misleading. Please enlighten me.

 

[bholler]

Isn't this precisely what the EPA are doing? EPA bunches Pellet stoves, wood burning stoves and inserts into the same certification spread sheet. It would stand to reason that the lay person (or permit decision maker) would use this rating as a criteria for particle emissions. (Mine did anyway), I would have assumed that when making this list, the EPA would have created a level playing field, comparing apples with apple unless specifically stated. Otherwise they are being very misleading. Please enlighten me.

I will let bkvp answer that he knows way more than I do about it. But to answer your question above about lining your existing chimney. First off once you take out the fireplace there will be nothing holding the chimney up in place. And you will need to use a chimney system approved for use with your fireplace

 

[BKVP]

Isn't this precisely what the EPA are doing? EPA bunches Pellet stoves, wood burning stoves and inserts into the same certification spread sheet. It would stand to reason that the lay person (or permit decision maker) would use this rating as a criteria for particle emissions. (Mine did anyway), I would have assumed that when making this list, the EPA would have created a level playing field, comparing apples with apple unless specifically stated. Otherwise they are being very misleading. Please enlighten me.

You are correct. EPA actually lumped forced air wood furnaces into QQQQ subpage, which is the same as outdoor hydronic heaters. We, industry are working to enlighten regulators to these precise issues. Some states won't recognize a .8 gr/hr wood stove as being cleaner than a 1.0 gr/hr pellet stove. Some do. It is a puzzle of both misinformed and bias that is beginning to create a patchwork of programs. We're trying. Happy to discuss if you call my office sometime.

BKVP

 

[Jacklumber]

You are correct. EPA actually lumped forced air wood furnaces into QQQQ subpage, which is the same as outdoor hydronic heaters. We, industry are working to enlighten regulators to these precise issues. Some states won't recognize a .8 gr/hr wood stove as being cleaner than a 1.0 gr/hr pellet stove. Some do. It is a puzzle of both misinformed and bias that is beginning to create a patchwork of programs. We're trying. Happy to discuss if you call my office sometime.

BKVP

Thanks BKVP.

 

[TxFLSTC]

I tried to contact Jacklumber, but as a new member
the system will not let me, so on staffs advise I am posting,
I apologize for bothering everyone else.
Mr Jacklumber Sir;
I would be very appreciative if I could get a copy of
the pdf of the old FMI 42GC manual that you managed
to get. I have two 1985 FMI's; 42GB & 42GC, and am looking
to install doors / blower.
Thank You Very Much
Bruce Smith

 

[burniefp]

I tried to contact Jacklumber, but as a new member
the system will not let me, so on staffs advise I am posting,
I apologize for bothering everyone else.
Mr Jacklumber Sir;
I would be very appreciative if I could get a copy of
the pdf of the old FMI 42GC manual that you managed
to get. I have two 1985 FMI's; 42GB & 42GC, and am looking
to install doors / blower.
Thank You Very Much
Bruce Smith

I also would love a copy of the 42GC manual. It has been elusive.

Bernie

 

[begreen]

I tried to contact Jacklumber, but as a new member
the system will not let me, so on staffs advise I am posting,
I apologize for bothering everyone else.
Mr Jacklumber Sir;
I would be very appreciative if I could get a copy of
the pdf of the old FMI 42GC manual that you managed
to get. I have two 1985 FMI's; 42GB & 42GC, and am looking
to install doors / blower.
Thank You Very Much
Bruce Smith

You need to have a few postings and then will be able to PM him. This is for spam protection of hearth members. Note that this is a 6 yr old thread and Jacklumber has not posted for the past 3 yrs.

Have you tried contacting FMI?

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