hobbyheater
Minister of Fire
From the start and of as of yet you have not stated your personal interest in this debate !
Would you possibly represent a Fossil Fuel lobby that wants the total market share of home heating fuels ?
Hello Allen,From the start and of as of yet you have not stated your personal interest in this debate !
Would you possibly represent a Fossil Fuel lobby that wants the total market share of home heating fuels ?
Hello Allen,
As I stated in an earlier post, I do not represent any special interest nor am I obligated to any specific wood burning manufacturer, although I am partial to thermal storage OWBs and believe based on current technology it is the cleanest way to burn in a hydronic heater. I also feel that wood is a great alternative fuel if the technology realistically allows for a clean burn. In fact, I am currently looking at supplementing my geothermal unit with a clean burning indoor wood burner for emergencies. Any suggestions?
I didn't watch the video to the very end (ran out of time) but without any mention that wood can be burned cleaner, the video damages the wood burning community in the eyes of the general public.
Glad to here this !
The clean burn ability of our 30 year old Jetstream with storage , I beleive still exceeds that of many units now on the market today. Four years ago we got new neighbor , and over that period he had seen us putting wood into the woodshed . He had to come and ask what did we do with the wood , did we sell wood ? I said NO , but we heated our home and domestic hot water year round with wood . Again he was surprised as he had never seen smoke coming out of the chimney! As a wood burner that is the ultimate compliment .
hobbheater, now THAT's the story that needs to get out there! Thanks for sharing.
I might have a different recommendation for a boiler however (ahem)![]()
To the OP, who seems to be on a mission to trash talk OWBs
... although I am partial to thermal storage OWBs and believe based on current technology it is the cleanest way to burn in a hydronic heater.
I agree, the general impression most people will have from this report is that all wood burning is polluting. This report was much more thorough than most "news" stories, but, still, it would have been helpful if they had pointed out the better options that are out there. For example, they could have explored why indoor boilers are not regulated by DEC.
Yes, and I agree it is a major step in the right direction. The question becomes will the EPA adopt the changes for WHH? As we speak (unless the government shutdown affected the process) OMB is taking comments from select groups concerning changes to NSPS. The proposed changes to NSPS, with respect to hydronic heaters, is projected to use the current Phase II standards employing WHH as the discriminator. The positive aspect about including Hydronic Heaters in NSPS is the volunteer program will be dead, and as such the EPA will no longer need to over compromise to get participation. If the changes to NSPS are ultimately adopted manufacturers will be forced to comply. The question then would become how to incorporate the Brookhaven changes. As we all know change is difficult and slow in government programs.
Unless I missed something in the video one of the owners had replaced their OWB with an indoor unit. It would have been valuable to learn exactly what was going on with that thing based on the amount of smoke coming out of it in one of the scenes.
It looked fully as bad as the OWB it replaced. Probably a non-gasser with no storage, which is in effect about the same as an OWB.
If you have contact information for the parties involved would you share it here?
Hi Chris,I think the neighbor identified the indoor unit as a Harmann. I don't remember which model, but a non-gassifier, almost certainly without storage and very likely over-sized. Tronsilver and Heaterman, would your expectation be that this type of boiler will go away with the new EPA regs?
I think the neighbor identified the indoor unit as a Harmann. I don't remember which model, but a non-gassifier, almost certainly without storage and very likely over-sized. Tronsilver and Heaterman, would your expectation be that this type of boiler will go away with the new EPA regs?
Hi Chris,
Yes, traditional OWBs not meeting Phase II standards would not be allowed to be sold after the regs are established. However, those already sold would most probably be grandfathered.
I believe OMB will post the results of the groups involved on their website within a week or so.If you have contact information for the parties involved would you share it here?
It's my understanding that WHH includes indoor boilers as well.You're still talking all OWBs, while others here are also talking indoor units. You seem to be skirting or ignoring indoor units at times - your response quoted above was with respect to an indoor Harmon, not an OWB.
Just for the sake of argument, lets say the "bad neighbor" has replaced his OWB with a Garn, or Tarm for that matter. Still burned green wood in it, and figured out a way to shut the air way down "to get it to burn for more than three dang hours". Either of those great boilers would smoke up a storm as well. We can regulate all we want and even force everyone to be like Europe, but we still can't fix stupid!
I'm not saying we need to leave things the way they are, but there is simply no way to regulate wood to be consumed cleanly............even with the best boilers out there. There is just too much variable in moisture content.
I agree especially if climate control begins to take hold and soot falls in the crosshairs. As I read the horror stories on the web about people being smoked out of their homes I can't help to fault local government for not fixing these problems as they surface.View attachment 113482 there is simply no way to regulate wood to be consumed cleanly............even with the best boilers out there. There is just too much variable in moisture content.
This is absolutely correct. The best equipment even with storage can be rendered useless. My "favorite farmer" proved this with his Garns. You can't do much better than a Garn but the guys on his farm managed to make that pair of 2000's look like they had a coal fired steam engine running back there.
This is why I have a hunch that unless we (the industry) gets behind a useful standard and really bangs the drum on best practices, we may be looking at a situation where the only equipment we can buy in 10 years will be pellet fired.
It's pretty logical really. Emissions can be drastically reduced if you control the fuel as well as the combustion process.
In the public debate on wood burning it is essential to educate legislators, regulators and the public on clean wood burning. An environmental learning center I work continually is involved in doing this. It has a Wood Gun E500 (external 4000 gal storage), a Garn WHS3200 (integrated 3200 gal storage) and a Froling FHG-L50 (external 1650 gal storage), all located in the middle of and in close proximity to classrooms, dormitories and staff living quarters. The facility is visited by about 10,000 persons every year, including during the cold weather heating season. It is surrounded by hills on three sides and a lake on the 4th side. There is no smoke issue from any of these.
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