insert in 2 sided fireplace?

[wg_bent]

The answer STOVE might not, but the Answer insert version would, and it would also be a very appropriate stove for your needs.

Getting heat to flow out of the side portion of that fireplace doesn't seem like a good thing to be counting on. Rhonemas is thinking exactly the same as I am. A convection stove of some sort will heat better and overheat the small room less.

I know this from experience. My parents had a good size coal stove in a room similar in size to yours for a lot of years. In order for the heat to get upstairs the room the stove was in needed to always be in the mid 80's. Not very comfortable in the middle of winter.

By contrast, my insert with a blower heats my whole house reasonably well.

Another blower story was my sister having had an Answer insert for years added a blower mid-last year and claimed that the blower improved the effectiveness of the stove by a huge factor. The stove wasn't putting out any more heat, but rather the heat was being moved more efficiently.

In your situation your goal is to simply move the heat as effectively as possible and that heat movement to your upstairs is convection heat, thus a convection stove is the best bet.

 

[Rhone]

thus a convection stove is the best bet.

and I know Warren means to say insert also, an insert is nothing more than a "convection wood stove" without legs, and a surround to cover the fireplace opening.

Though, some "convection wood stoves" seem to be partials, not having heat shields on all sides like most inserts.

 

[begreen]

Seems to me that any stove in that small room is going to make it very uncomfortable unless you live naked. I'd go for a decent sized insert or stove in the living room install with a ceiling fan to spread the warmth. What are the dimensions of the fireplace there?

 

[wg_bent]

thus a convection stove is the best bet.

and I know Warren means to say insert also, an insert is nothing more than a "convection wood stove" without legs, and a surround to cover the fireplace opening.

Though, some "convection wood stoves" seem to be partials, not having heat shields on all sides like most inserts.

Agreed, and good clarification...

And example of a "partial" might be a Morso 1440. Listed as convection, but really just a 1410 with some channels built into it.

I understand a Lopi Answer insert and free standing ARE identical except for the support...legs vs pedistal (That statement came from the local dealer...not me)

 

[Todd]

We've been down this road before about convection and radiant stoves. Radiant stoves give off both radiant and convection heat. Cold air moves towards warm air and creates air currents or convection. Baffles and shrouds don't create more convection, they just create closer clearances. If my stove only gave off only radiant heat, my upstairs would be stone cold and wouldn't be within 5 degrees of the downstairs like it is.

I think as long as there is a block off plate either type of stove will work for you. Pick the one you like the looks of best. Leave the side opening there, I bet the heat will pour out of there and up the stairs.

 

[Rhone]

And, as usualy I don't agree

If radiant heat converted so well to convection then standing in the sun, and standing in the shade you wouldn't feel much difference. However, when I'm standing in the sun I feel 15+ degrees warmer than if I'm standing in the shade. It tricks you into feeling warmer than it actually is, convection makes you feel as warm as it is. Also, I don't understand how masonry heaters would work, they give off tons of radiant energy... but the air temp in a house with a Masonry heater is usually low 60's and extremely little air movement. If it converted well, there should be some air movement. Freestanding stoves produce both forms, convection wood stoves and inserts convert the radiant form into additional amounts of convection you can move to other places or floors and not have it only in the area around itself.

 

[wg_bent]

And, as usualy I don't agree

If radiant heat converted so well to convection then standing in the sun, and standing in the shade you wouldn't feel much difference. However, when I'm standing in the sun I feel 15+ degrees warmer than if I'm standing in the shade. It tricks you into feeling warmer than it actually is, convection makes you feel as warm as it is. Also, I don't understand how masonry heaters would work, they give off a lot of radiant heat... but the air temp in a house with a Masonry heater is usually low 60's and extremely little air movement with one.

at some point the radiant heat is converted to convection. Otherwise the earth would not have wind. Masonry heaters heat up everything in the house via their radiant heat, thus even the air gets warm because the walls are warm, floors, chairs...everything. As the room that they are in is warmed to a higher temp than other rooms, convection currents occur.

My point is that in the particular circumstances of the original post, it's my opinion that getting increasing the amount of convection heat that's occuring is probably more efficient than a higher amount of radiant heat, since I believe that the lower room would certainly feel hotter with a stove producing mostly radiant heat such as a cast iron stove would. We'll say a VC intreped vs Lopi Answer as examples only. Exactly as you pointed out, with the VC you'd likely FEEL warmer due to the radiant heat. When all is said and done, given the same BTU output, the upstairs temps probably would not be all that different. Maybe a little, but not the difference between installing a Jotul 602 and a PE Summit.

In the end I think a more convection oriented stove would be better...If he installs a Radiant stove...I'm sure it will still heat the house.

 

[Rhone]

(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/wscompha.htm) Look at their wood stove comparison chart and see how they explain

"There appears to be a contradiction in the chart: the Hearthstone Heritage, Homestead and Shelburne models have a higher average btu/hr output than the Pacific Energy Super 27, Spectrum and Classic models, yet the Pacific Energy models are rated to heat a larger area. This is due to the two different ways the heat is delivered. The Hearthstone models are primarily radiant heaters, meaning the heat enters the room directly through the body surfaces of the stove. The Pacific Energy models are primarily convection heaters, meaning they're of double-wall construction and deliver most of the heat in the form of heated air. Since heated air is easier to move around the house than radiant energy, a larger area can be heated with fewer btu's/hr using a convection heater."

It's true either will heat the house, but the convection units I feel are better suited if your goal is heating areas not near the unit. I think the key we're missing is radiant energy does not convert only to convection when it strikes an object it converts to radiant, convection, and conductive energy. The difference being the shrouds around convection wood stoves & inserts keep recycling most of the radiant & conductive energy until it converts to convection, whereas objects in the room do not. Then again, maybe I'm insane

 

[begreen]

Yep agreed, the key difference is "forced" convection. Natural convection doesn't always work well in a non-open floorplan.

But regardless of stove, I still think it will turn the 135 sq ft den into a sauna.

 

[Todd]

(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/wscompha.htm) Look at their wood stove comparison chart and see how they explain

"There appears to be a contradiction in the chart: the Hearthstone Heritage, Homestead and Shelburne models have a higher average btu/hr output than the Pacific Energy Super 27, Spectrum and Classic models, yet the Pacific Energy models are rated to heat a larger area. This is due to the two different ways the heat is delivered. The Hearthstone models are primarily radiant heaters, meaning the heat enters the room directly through the body surfaces of the stove. The Pacific Energy models are primarily convection heaters, meaning they're of double-wall construction and deliver most of the heat in the form of heated air. Since heated air is easier to move around the house than radiant energy, a larger area can be heated with fewer btu's/hr using a convection heater."

It's true either will heat the house, but the convection units I feel are better suited if your goal is heating areas not near the unit. I think the key we're missing is radiant energy does not convert only to convection when it strikes an object it converts to radiant, convection, and conductive energy. The difference being the shrouds around convection wood stoves & inserts keep recycling most of the radiant & conductive energy until it converts to convection, whereas objects in the room do not. Then again, maybe I'm insane

That chart doesn't prove anything! Who made up those numbers? Numbers are only numbers and I doubt those are real world. The Chimney sweep and manufactures can pretty much say what they want to sell their product. There too many variables like climate temps, insulation, draft, ext, ext.

My current stove has lots of convection and it's not just from hitting other objects. When you put your hand above the stove you feel the heat rising. If you light a match down low the flame points towards the stove, hold it up high and it points away from the stove. Is this not convection? The room it is in acts as a giant shroud and moves the air from hot to cold naturally. I burned both types of stoves and noticed very little difference. But then maybe I'm insane also.

 

[suematteva]

There is a significant amount of mass in those two flues..Two Back to Back if I remember from the beginning of the thread..They are also going to be around a good portion of the time to feed the fire..Having that much mass is going to absorb alot of heat either way..

Bring the family out for a ride and check out stoves, radiant, convection, inserts that will work, see what is appealling to you and the family.

 

[elkimmeg]

When I run my radient stove the temps rise in the ajoining room. There is no way radient heat is effecting the temp gage on my thermostat in that location. I have owned an Ellel natural convection stove in the past. I do not see the difference in heat production but I too benifit from masive granite stone center location absorbing heat and releasing it long after the stove has gone out.
Having actually experienced both stoves opperations in the exact location the radient stove does a better job of heating up the granite mass. Once that grwnit mas heats up it is like a wick and continues heating not only on the first level but it emits heat on the second floor as well Running days at 24/7 one can store a lot of heat warming up that interior flue that long also heats the stones.

I see the use of blowers for exterior chimney locations and convection of an insert so heat id pushed into the room and not lost to
esternal walls of that location fireplace. You want true heat the best location is interior the exteriot fireplaces locations are for convience , taking up less floor space. There is no worse location exposing 3 walls to the exterior, Its as iff the fireplaces were added as an after thought.

Just how good does convection stoves work well first of all they are radient with a outer shell. Everbody here is concerned about moving warm air mixing heated air with cooler air . Effeciency is moving cooler air to allow lighter warm air to take its place blowing heated air at cooler air takes a long time to overcome the weight difference and the mixing that occures.
It seems HVAC contractors know enough to load up of the supply side but are woofully inadequate on the return side either in vollume and or locations. you have to remove that colder air.. This is part of the reason using you return to distrobute stove heated air fails. . A system can be designed to do that effectively but chances are that you home returns are so pooly sized and located they and inefectual. Anybody having ceiling returns,already has a poorly designed system. Why would noe want to return already heated air?

 

[Roospike]

Anybody having ceiling returns,already has a poorly designed system. Why would one want to return already heated air?

Its a double edge knife. The upper returns is going to work best in the Summer when cooling the house and pulling the upper warm air into the system to be cooled. If the returns were lower at the floor than you would be pulling already cooled air to be cooled. Its the same thing one way or the other. A nice system to have would be to have return vents up high and down low and you could close off the proper return vents as it pertains to the season you are in. (heating / cooling )

 

[philaphire]

I was away this weekend so wasn't able to post - wow - thanks for all the input, didn't know I'd cause quite a stir!

So much to process here - THANKS!