Inefficient insulation, or inefficient floor plan? HELP!

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A wood fired boiler (Tarm etc.) may be an option too, they are pricey compared to a wood stove but if you put one heating zone per floor you will always have the house at a temperature you want. Tough to justify a second stove looking at your situation.
 
Hi photo,

You probably want to invest as much as needed in insulation and draft eradication. And drying wood. Then next winter, see what happens. next year this time, you will probably decide you need a new stove. Trade the old one or sell it on ebay and get a large stove and install it in the basement. Heat will rise and get upstairs. Don't cut registers. It is illegal and dangerous (do a search on the forums and see Elk's comments [genuine home inspector]).

Also, don't install the pellet stove yet. Very expensive compared to a new or bigger wood stove and you don't know yet if it is needed.

If you need a large stove; look at the Quadrafire Isle Royale (I have one) or a PE summit. Others will tell you about similar models.

Good luck

carpniels
 
carpniels said:
Hi photo,

You probably want to invest as much as needed in insulation and draft eredication. And drying wood. Then next winter, see what happens. next year this time, you will probably decide you need a new stove. Trade the old one or sell it on ebay and get a large stove and install it in the basement. Heat will rise and get upstairs. Don't cut registers. It is illegal and dangerous (do a search on the forums and see Elk's comments [genuine home inspector]).

Also, don't install the pellet stove yet. Very expensive compared to a new or bigger wood stove and you don't know yet if it is needed.

If you need a large stove; look at the Quadrafire Isle Royale (I have one) or a PE summit. Others will tell you about similar models.

Good luck

carpniels

I agree...do the insulation stuff first because you need to do this anyway. Seal up all drafty areas you can and then next year, try the stove again....if 30,000 BTU/hr was your requirement BEFORE you insulated, then after you insulate it should be even lower but with that big of a house, it sounds like it may still be a distribution problem and when you bring the 3rd story on-line, the stove may be too small.

So...insulate and seal this summer and re-try the stove in the fall.

Hint: To see if putting a single stove in the basement will heat upper levels, open the 3rd floor area now and see if heat from your current stove on the 2nd floor migrates up there......if it won't, then putting a larger stove in the basement probably won't do it either (it would be a larger stove but it would be another floor removed from the 3rd floor you'd be trying to heat) but putting a second stove down there (and keeping the one you have now on the 2nd floor) may work in tandem to "pump" air around the house..........you have no easy solutions because you lack a vent system to distribute heat and you have three floors you're loking at heating.....
 
These are all great suggestions, but I think I may have failed to mention that we plan on using the basement quite a bit. It's completely finished, and will house the home theater, family room, and kids playroom. I'm assuming cranking a 75,000 BTU monster (even near an open stairway) will make the heat borderline unbearable, no? To be honest, I'm really leaning towards wither leaving the current stove or upgrading to the Fireview (10,000 BTU more) but leaving it on the middle level. Someone pointed me to an article (earlier post, same thread) on how efficient a middle level install can be to heat the upper and lower levels. Then I'll just put a room heater, like a pellet stove, in the basement and use it when I need it.
 
I agree that Woodstock did not mislead you, their sq ft area is conservative. I had a wood stove in the basement 30 years, it sucked. I put vents all over the house trying to get the heat elsewhere, even put fan powered vents, insulated the basement walls I had to keep my basement 80F+ for the floor above to be 72F and floor above that 60F. I burned a lot of wood trying to maintain 80F+ in the basement so BIG NO on the basement location unless it's the main place you hang out.

After being updated to your situation I'd attack your house in the following manner. First, your #1 priority is air sealing. Air moving through insulation it's not going to work like expected. More importantly, the more insulation you add the more important you seal air leaks first as not doing so can create moisture problems. There's an effect in houses called the "stack effect" which means sealing air leaks in the attic is the most important place to reduce drafts in the main living areas, followed by the basement, last the main floors. So, the most effort and care should be spent air sealing the attic. Then again, you can't really skimp anywhere because you're in a windy area. In your attic look at the insulation and anywhere you see it's dirty/black there's an air leak close by as insulation doesn't stop air flow, but it does filter it leaving dust/dirt behind. Dirty insulation doesn't affect the R-Value. Common places of air leaks are wire penetrations into the attic, light fixture boxes, vent stack penetrations, around a masonry chimney there's usually 3" clearance around it close that off with metal (needs to be noncombustible). If you have recessed lights that aren't air tight they're HUGE amounts of air leakage. Build a drywall box around them and caulk it so it is air tight. Get gaskets for the attic door and make sure the attic door is insulated. Use blown cellulose, it's cheaper, almost impossible to install incorrectly, and far better than fiberglass at reducing air flow and achieving it's rated R-Value. Fiberglass batts, each piece has to be meticulously fluffed, cut around every obstacle so there's 0% gap, can't be compressed around obstacles, and can't have any gaps/spaces around it. Fiberglass batt insulation with just a 1% gap around it will reduce it's R-Value by 30-50%. Trust me, rent the blown cellulose machine. You only need R38, going to R50 will save you only 0.06 cords/year/1000 sq ft for heating and save 24.4 Kilowatts of electricity cooling more so economically it's wisest to go R38 and spend money elsewhere for improvements. R38 from your current R20 fiberglass should cut your wood use by around 0.4-0.5 cords and save you 196 Kilowatts of electricity for cooling in summer per 1000 sq ft.

I'd work on your basement. Certainly air seal the sill plate/rim joist area. That's where the cement of your walls turns into wood at the top. I like to use XPS (Extruded Poly Styrene) foam, which is the baby blue/pink foam boards not the white styrofoam. I cut them to shape on a table-saw, stick them up, and caulk or seal them with expanding polyurethane foam. I hope your basement walls are insulated because cement has an R-Value of 0.08/inch so if your foundation is 10" thick your basement walls are R0.8! Having them half exposed is a bad thing, most people have most of it burried and the ground maintains a constant 50F or so their poor insulation performance is buffered. That's a place I might think about insulating, just make sure it's done right you're supposed to put XPS foam first directly against the foundation, and by building codes it must be fastened to the cement with mechanical means like tapcons. Can't just depend on adhesive, in a fire situation the adhesive fails that tapcons won't.

Don't replace your windows if they're in good shape. Just make sure they're caulked and sealed. Replacing your current wood casements with Low-E + Argon windows will save you 0.015/cords of wood per 10 ft sq window and 6.4 Kilowatts of electricity for cooling / year where you live. If I lived in your area replacing 10 windows each at 10 sq ft will cost about $3000 and save me $40.14/year in wood & cooling. Economically the payback isn't there. You should replace them only if you want the convenience of cleaning, or a new look, or they're broken.

Lastly, when it comes to drying wood make sure you cover the tops as it rains like 3 days a week in Central Mass. Also, sunlight is by far the quickest way to dry it, followed by wind. Try to put it in the sun.
 
AWESOME COMMENTS. This forum is invaluable. Thank you all.

After reading, re-reading, talking things over with my wife, etc, we have formulated a game plan. First, I'm splitting and stacking all of my wood - in the sun, running the stacks east to west to promote air flow. Next, fix all of the insulation and leak issues. That goes without saying. It's clearly the best "bang for the buck" and will cost little for the payback. I'll blow in cellulose in the attic to R-40-50. Next, I'll seal the "envelope" of the house - inside and out, but first I'm buying stock in Great Stuff and 50 Yr silicone. As for the stove, we've decided to keep the Keystone, and keep it where it is. We already have a free 40,000 BTU pellet stove, and if I buy right, we can get the pellets for $175/ton. This will heat the downstairs (bsmt) when we're down there. I believe that if we insulate right and season wood 1-2 seasons ahead of time, the Keystone will do it's job. I'm confident.

Thank you again so much for all of your input. I'm hooked on the forum!!
 
Hey, I'm late to this thread, but looks like I may be the only other Woodstock user posting so far.

First, the main difference with the Fireview is just that you can burn longer between loads - the maximum output won't be all that different. Essentially, a Fireview takes away the ashpan to make a deeper firebox. But with the catalyst system, you control the burn rate, and if you still keep the surface at 600 degrees, you're not making a whole lot more heat than a Keystone running at 600.

As for getting 600 degrees - it's easy - but you need good wood! The first year, I had OK wood that I split between June-August - not a lot of drying time. Far from perfect, but useable. Some days I could easily get up to 600, but when I started running low, I used some real junk wood in there that was hard to get much past 400. This winter, I had much better wood - split between November '05-May '06. Not quite a full year of seasoning for all of it, but all wood had the entire summer to dry. I also built a proper woodshed to stack and store the wood so it was kept dry all winter. Previously I used pallets and tarps. It was much better all winter, but by the time I got to the back of the pile this spring, which was wood split about 15 months prior, it AMAZING. In fact, I had to take great care to make sure I didn't let the stove overfire. I was generally running it about 1/2 a notch from completely closed air flow, getting 600 degree surface temperatures whenever I wanted it and really long hot burns.

Now while this was great, could be better! So, for next year, my wood was mostly split last fall - I may have to split one more cord over the next month, but not sure I will need it. Additionally, I am leaving most of it piled in a very sunny field all summer on pallets with a dark brown tarp only covering the top. In late summer, I'll bring it up to the woodshed. Last year, I piled it all in the woodshed because I already had it split in a heap up by the house. But that wasn't ideal because the woodshed only sees a little bit of sun, and when I had the wood stacked 4 rows deep, I'm sure it wasn't drying as much as it could have.

As for what you can heat - I agree with all the advice that you should absolutely drop $500-$1000 on some insulation/sealing activities. But I disagree with others telling you this stove is not big enough. If your goal is to heat 100% on wood, you will need more. But if your goal is to cut that 1100 gallon oil bill to ~300-400 gallons, much of which is going to be your domestic hot water use, then you should have no problems.

To give you some perspective on our experience w/the Fireview... We have a house built in 2001, 2800 SF; roughly 500 SF is two bedrooms in a separate heating zone upstairs that I close off and keep at 50. House has 18 ft. ceiling in modest sized living room; 9 ft ceilings downstairs, ~44 windows. New, so insulated reasonably well, but a lot of glass and high ceilings. We were burning about 900 gallons per year prior to installing the stove.

Two winters ago, with the stove, for a full year we used 382 gallons. Based on summer oil deliveries when not using heat, I calculated that we were burning about 0.76 gallons/day just for domestic hot water and standby losses. That's about 277 gallons/year for hot water, not correcting for the fact that groundwater is a little colder in winter. Therefore, with the stove, we cut our heating portion of the oil use from roughly (900-277)=623 gallons to (382-277)=105 gallons to heat the house.

Now you will sometimes hear crazy claims of people cutting 1500 gallons of oil with two cords of wood or a few bags of pellets :-)

As a sanity check, I burned about 4 cords of wood. If I have a well maintained oil burner, and I use dry wood and follow good practices, both are roughly 70-80% efficient - I'll call it a wash for now. A cord of hardwood has energy equivalent to ~160-180 gallons of oil. On average, you could say that we should have saved 4 cords X 170 gallons/cord = 680 gallons. In fact, I saved about 518 gallons. That reflects my house being a little warmer with the wood heat, which took more energy, and not having perfect wood all winter which meant my oil burner probably still came out a few percent ahead on efficiency per BTU of fuel. Nonetheless, the numbers are at least in the right ballpark to be scientifically valid.

So what does this mean for you? If you burned 1300 gallons of oil pre-stove, look at your summer burn rate between deliveries to figure out how much is domestic hot water. Then roughly take that out over a year, and subtract it. What is left is what you need for heat. It may only be 1000 gallons. You can estimate about how many cords you'll go through - 3 is probably reasonable unless someone is home to load frequently - take the number of cords of good dry wood you plan to burn X 170 - that is how many gallons you should expect the stove to help displace. Finally, the insulation suggestions should take you to a number much closer to zero after accounting for your hot water use and wood burning. Probably not zero, but hopefully not more than one tank of oil - this is really good advice from others.

This winter, we are still on the first tank of oil - however, we also now have solar hot water. While the solar HW doesn't make a ton of heat in the winter, it helps preheat the water enough that it's cutting more of our oil use. And we've now shut down our boiler for the season :-) We still use some oil for heat if we're on vacation, out late without coming home, or when it is a bitter cold snap. But we don't use much. We're getting 80% of our heat needs in a lot more challenging situation with a stove that is not really much bigger output - just one that has longer burn times between loads - so I think that you can do a lot more with your current stove.

-Colin
 
Good to get your perspective Colin. You're setup is the reason I said that Photo may be able to do ok with their current stove by making these changes. I'm glad they decided to keep it.
 
NY Soapstone said:
Therefore, with the stove, we cut our heating portion of the oil use from roughly (900-277)=623 gallons to (382-277)=105 gallons to heat the house.
-Colin

Most stoves, in moderately insulated homes with few drafts, technically put out far more than enough BTU'S to heat the entire home and uneven heat distribution is the only problem that prevents a person from going to zero oil or NG usage.......... take your example of using 623 gallons to heat during the heating season. That 623 gallons (if fuel oil) is about 86M BTU's. Divide that by 180 days (6 mo heating season) and you get 477,633 BTU's/day or about 20,000 BTU/hr......your stove puts out an average of about 24,000 BTU's so, technically, your stove should be able to easily heat your entire home but inability to fully distribute heat means you occasionally used some fuel oil. In fact, a small VC Intrepid II running at only 75% capacity could technically easily heat your house, but again, it all comes down to being able to distribute heat. In Photohounds case though I think insulation should be first on the list and then see if the current stove works better. My guess is that it will!
 
After taking the weekend to think it through some more, I am confident with our decision to keep the stove. You can bet that I will do everything within my power (and wallet) to seal and stuff that house as much as I can. I was splitting and stacking all weekend... dry wood is my first objective, chronologically. I figure if I can get my oil usage down from 500 gallons this year to 250 next year, I'll be a happy guy. Considering the hot water runs off of the same furnace, it might be a challenge to get much lower than one tank a year, but we're gonna try!! Eventually, we're going solar for hot water and some electricity, too! Someone suggested a wind turbine (considering our elevation and exposure) but I just can't get past the look... and the dead birds...

Heating is only one issue we're tackling at the house. We're renovating the entire house from top to bottom. If anyone's interested, I started a blog on it last week (photos included). I'm documenting the entire process, and the stove/heating is going to be a major entry. It's at shoestringupgrade.blogspot.com
 
Birds fly into windmills?
How do they avoid the trees in the forest?
 
babalu87 said:
Birds fly into windmills?
How do they avoid the trees in the forest?

trees are stationary and they (birds) have a much harder time negotiating a moving object............and an object (blade) that may, at times, blend into the sky background and not be seen......ouch that hurt!!!...LOL...
 
John as a contractor Let me point out a few things you may mnot considered. When I puurchash material I get a contractor discount it might be that on an average my materials bills
go beyond 100k a year. Lumberyards like to keep vollume customers that pay on time anf d will discount to keep them. I very rairly shop Home Crapo only if I have to. If there are any savings It is hard to pick threw crap stock to find usable pieces and load them into carts then into my truck. No money saved with the time factor Usually I calculatye what is required for stock pick up the phone h and have it delivered I save a lot of time and Cost are a wash possibly cheaper Home Chepo does not reconize me as a contractor and anyone can purchase the item for the sticker price. I often wondered about the claim where joe homeowner saved so much money by doing it thimselves For one you do not have the tools of expertise I possess not can you work nearly as fast of efffecient as I can. Is saving money equate taking 4 times longer doing a task than me? I will make fewer errors and waste less lumber .

I'm not saying that homeowners can't save money by DIY. Have you factored in your bid position with subcontractors? Who do you think they will give their best bid to? A contractor that provides multiple jobs to them year after year or to the one time one job homeowner?

As an inspector guess which homes we have the most problems with the Homeowner turned GC builder. Since this is his first time He has to rely of hiring good contractors and many times they pick the lowest bidders That equATES TO CHEAP BUILDER SPECIALS GAS STOVES AND HEATING EQUIPMENT. (Sorry hit cap lock) I fail these inspections and usually require 3 or 4 follow up re-inspections. Talking to the homeowner /Gc is useless. Most do not have a clue as to the codes

Now if your project is insulation and draft stopping I can see where homeowners might save some money. When I do interior finish I usually have saws and equipment on hand that cost over 4k Pretty hard to purchase the saws and tools I have and claim you saved money, to do interior trim if a couple rooms

Word on tools Think about this as you are purchasing them Home Crapo tools many are crap. Ryobi exist making cheaper versions of tools for sale at Home Crapo Ridid bastardized their name to produce power tools made in China for sale at Home Crapo. One can also purchace good tools there but one has to stick with the brands that are not watered down Like Makita Bosch or Mililkee (sp) i know.). I have learned, I have or used to have the reminants, of cheap burned out tools.

Just like your stove one has to set realistic goals as to money saved and skill levels? If I did not have skills better that the common DIY I would never be employed.
 
Babalu -

About the birds - I forgot to mention my sarcasm gene... I was totally kidding. But thanks, castiron, for getting my back.

Elk - Regarding the DIY - I'm not building an addition. I'm renovating. Paint, trim, drywall, insulation, some electrical (only the stuff I know I can do), flooring, fixtures, landscaping. Over the entire renovation project, I will easily save $10,000-$20,000 on labor. $25,000 might be stretching it, but it's definitely reasonable. I guess you'd have to see the amount of asthetics that truly needs to be done!

However, point well taken. I know better than to tackle a project that's over my head. Carpet, for example. The specialty tools alone kill any cost savings. I wouldn't even attempt it.
 
castiron said:
NY Soapstone said:
Therefore, with the stove, we cut our heating portion of the oil use from roughly (900-277)=623 gallons to (382-277)=105 gallons to heat the house.
-Colin

Most stoves, in moderately insulated homes with few drafts, technically put out far more than enough BTU'S to heat the entire home and uneven heat distribution is the only problem that prevents a person from going to zero oil or NG usage.......... take your example of using 623 gallons to heat during the heating season. That 623 gallons (if fuel oil) is about 86M BTU's. Divide that by 180 days (6 mo heating season) and you get 477,633 BTU's/day or about 20,000 BTU/hr......your stove puts out an average of about 24,000 BTU's so, technically, your stove should be able to easily heat your entire home but inability to fully distribute heat means you occasionally used some fuel oil. In fact, a small VC Intrepid II running at only 75% capacity could technically easily heat your house, but again, it all comes down to being able to distribute heat. In Photohounds case though I think insulation should be first on the list and then see if the current stove works better. My guess is that it will!

Indeed you are right - the vast majority of that oil is used to keep a closed off part of the house at 50 (about 500SF) and for heating our bedroom up a couple degrees early in the morning when the stove output is tapering off and it is coldest outside. The downstairs heat only runs when I am gone more than 12 hours and can't load as often, or we're on vacation. If I had a Keystone, I might need to plan to load every 8 hours to get the same result.

-Colin
 
ThePhotoHound said:
After taking the weekend to think it through some more, I am confident with our decision to keep the stove. You can bet that I will do everything within my power (and wallet) to seal and stuff that house as much as I can. I was splitting and stacking all weekend... dry wood is my first objective, chronologically. I figure if I can get my oil usage down from 500 gallons this year to 250 next year, I'll be a happy guy. Considering the hot water runs off of the same furnace, it might be a challenge to get much lower than one tank a year, but we're gonna try!! Eventually, we're going solar for hot water and some electricity, too! Someone suggested a wind turbine (considering our elevation and exposure) but I just can't get past the look... and the dead birds...

Heating is only one issue we're tackling at the house. We're renovating the entire house from top to bottom. If anyone's interested, I started a blog on it last week (photos included). I'm documenting the entire process, and the stove/heating is going to be a major entry. It's at shoestringupgrade.blogspot.com

So you're already down from 1100 to 500 gallons this year? If so, that is already huge progress.

As I mentioned in my other post, you may easily go through 250 gallons just for your hot water over the course of the year. With oil now over $2/gallon, a tankless coil is probably the most expensive way to make hot water with the possible exception of electricity, depending on your local rates. You have a great opportunity to take advantage of solar and save a lot of money. You lose heat much more rapidly out of a boiler than a well insulated hot water tank, and the combustion efficiency is worse than gas, so many of the BTUs in the oil you buy never make hot water at the tap.

If you are on automatic delivery, see if you can measure what you use per day over a summer period - that will give you some insight into what you spend on hot water.

-Colin
 
Photo as for Paint: A word of advice use quality paints and brushes. Quality paint is not Bher, but Ben Moore, Pitsburg, sherwin williams. an others

Even Gliden brand name sold and box stores, is watered down less pigments than sold at paint stores Don't believe me goggle Bher paints 11,000 pages of complaints will keep you busy

Draft stopping use wall receptical insulator covers for every out side wall plugg and caulk the plaster and box space
 
elkimmeg said:
Photo as for Paint: A word of advice use quality paints and brushes. Quality paint is not Bher, but Ben Moore, Pitsburg, sherwin williams. an others

Even Gliden brand name sold and box stores, is watered down less pigments than sold at paint stores Don't believe me goggle Bher paints 11,000 pages of complaints will keep you busy

Draft stopping use wall receptical insulator covers for every out side wall plugg and caulk the plaster and box space

I second the paint comment. I used to believe the consumers reports articles claiming there are low cost paints that are just as good. But I've used big box paint in many rooms, and later used Benjamine Moore when gas got pricey, I had a small job, and couldn't justify the drive to save $20. It is much much better. It is hard to stomach paying $36/gallon at the local hardware store, but there is no comparing this to $15-$20/gallon paint. Biggest difference seems to be how well the paint stays stable in the cans and doesn't separate out, and it has a much less "chalky" feel. Wish I had been using it all along!

That being said - Benjamin Moore also has a cheapo line of paints that our builder used in the couple areas we had him paint before we moved in - that stuff is total garbage, and much worse than anything I've purchased at HD and Lowes.

-Colin
 
Ok, here's my 02. I say keep the stove and move it to the lower level if you can, preferably near the stairwell. Since it's a split level and open floor plan I think you will get good results this way. The heat will rise and you want the heat where you spend most of your time. If your 3rd level is too cool, and it will be at times 10 or more degrees difference, use electric space heaters when you go to bed.

You are right that these Woodstock stoves are Conservative in their stated heating figures. I heat just over 1800 sq ft with mine from my finished walkout basement. Yes, there is a temp difference between the 2 floors but not much except on below zero windy days. Wood stoves are space heaters and you have to expect differences in the temps, but it is possible to heat your whole house or most of it if you have an open floor plan and a good air circulation.
 
this happens all to oftem with Bher paint its cheaper but once good light get into the room holidays are quite evident. End result is it takes 2 coats for coverage any money saved is gone when you have to buy another gallon. The lack of pignments will do this Coverage gets worse the more a color change differencial.

I pay $32 per interior Ben Moore a gallon. I have swapped to Pitsburg paint it cover and spreads about as good as B Moore, but cost me $28. However Home Cheapo primer paints are ok
not bad you can save some money there. On Colin situation lots of time builders hire painters that spray. They cut the paint with water. It looks ok for a while but in general poorer quality and coverage be any paint. Even if using B Moore, if cut for spray it weares like cheaper paint.

This is wandered off topic, but part of home improvements. When Consumer Reports asked comsumers to rate paint many chose Bher. Note, this study was done by homeowener not Pros.
Pros paint everyday and are more qualified to rate materials preformance, yet they were not part of the survey. Ask the Pros and few will endorse Bher paints
 
Photo, sorry for the late PM reply!

I have read through the 4 pages of comments and everyone is right on.

1. The number one reason for heat loss is air infiltration, not lack of insulation. So, I would deal with air infiltration, then add insulation. Pull off the window trim and use expanding foam between the window and framing. Pull off the base trim that runs along the exterior and caulk between the floor and wall. Take off switch and electrical outlet plates that are on exterior walls and caulk between the electrical box and drywall. You may also seal were the wire enters the box. (Carefull!) Blown insulation in the attic will go a long way to seal up areas were air is entering the heating envelope from the attic. Also, do you have too much attic ventilation?

2. My Keystone can easily run up to 700. To echo Colin's comments, I usually run on the 1/2 (of 1) setting to maintain a 400 degree stove. Dry wood is a must! Someone posted a handy chart last year about the relationship between stove temp and BTU output, and the difference between BTU of a 400-500 degree stove temp was huge, not a linear relationship. In the humid Virginia climate I'm in, wood does not really dry in the summer. Drying seems to be fasted from fall to spring. (The cracks in the wood actually close up in the mid summer humidity) I am now cutting wood for the 08-09 burning season. Stay a year ahead, keep it covered and exposed to the southern sun, and you will be in good shape moving forward.

Keep us all updated and sorry for the late PM reply!
 
elkimmeg said:
this happens all to oftem with Bher paint its cheaper but once good light get into the room holidays are quite evident. End result is it takes 2 coats for coverage any money saved is gone when you have to buy another gallon. The lack of pignments will do this Coverage gets worse the more a color change differencial.

I pay $32 per interior Ben Moore a gallon. I have swapped to Pitsburg paint it cover and spreads about as good as B Moore, but cost me $28. However Home Cheapo primer paints are ok
not bad you can save some money there. On Colin situation lots of time builders hire painters that spray. They cut the paint with water. It looks ok for a while but in general poorer quality and coverage be any paint. Even if using B Moore, if cut for spray it weares like cheaper paint.

This is wandered off topic, but part of home improvements. When Consumer Reports asked comsumers to rate paint many chose Bher. Note, this study was done by homeowener not Pros.
Pros paint everyday and are more qualified to rate materials preformance, yet they were not part of the survey. Ask the Pros and few will endorse Bher paints

Believe it or not, the best paint I ever used was Ralph Lauren!
 
DownEast - Great post. I know many skilled craftsmen that are not "contractors". My grandfather comes to mind: built an entire 1200 SF cape w/ attached garage that (believe it or not, Elk) is still standing 60 years later.

Elk - You blamed DownEast for attacking your craftsmanship, but what did you do to mine by making the comments that you did? I haven't detailed neither here, nor on on my blog what projects I have or have not done. What if I told you that a few months ago I replaced an old shower unit with a new one, including rerouting the plumbing, and paid only $500 (that includes the shower, mixing valve, shower head, spout, copper and PVC piping, solder, flux, torch, caulking, drywall, fiberglass tape, plaster, and plywood? How much would you quote for a job like that (including materials)? BTW, it took all of a weekend to do. I estimate I saved $1,000-$1,500 in labor. And that's only 1 tub/shower. I stand by my claim that I will easily save my $20,000-$25,000 during my entire renovation project. Please stay tuned... I plan on detailing the entire thing on my blog.
 
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