Indoor boiler advice needed

[andym]

JohnDolz:
Good advice from everyone. Now i need to decide if I want to take it. how do I contact this Chris?

How do the Effecta boilers compare with the Ekos?

Brenndatomu:
You mean there are options other than Menards?

 

[JohnDolz]

JohnDolz:
Good advice from everyone. Now i need to decide if I want to take it. how do I contact this Chris?

How do the Effecta boilers compare with the Ekos?

Brenndatomu:
You mean there are options other than Menards?

Chris works for Tarm Biomass (a huge sponsor of this site), just reach out to Tarm. I can tell you lots about the Effecta but don't know anything about Ekos.

 

[andym]

Chris works for Tarm Biomass (a huge sponsor of this site), just reach out to Tarm. I can tell you lots about the Effecta but don't know anything about Ekos.

Thats what I thought, thanks! I really need to sit down and figure my heat loads etc. I'm thinking I'll need a 30 to 40kw unit.

 

[maple1]

How do the Effecta boilers compare with the Ekos?

There are some basic design differences in boilers you should maybe be aware of when shopping.

One that pertains to those particular two is the difference between forced draft, and induced draft. Forced (Eko) blows combustion air in. Induced (Effecta) sucks combustion air in. Which can lead to forced draft units being more prone to smoke spillage. And making things like door gaskets even more important as a service/maintenance item. Mine is natural draft. Which is sort of induced since the chimney sucks air in. It doesn't even have any door gaskets to worry about. Personally, I would not want a forced draft boiler in my house.

And don't forget to research how hard or easy they are to clean. Stuff like that is what you will live with long after the purchase price fades away. I might be a bit biased but Varms are the easiest to clean on the market. Check out Smokeless Heat ad banner for more info on those. But there are a few good choices out there.

 

[andym]

There are some basic design differences in boilers you should maybe be aware of when shopping.

One that pertains to those particular two is the difference between forced draft, and induced draft. Forced (Eko) blows combustion air in. Induced (Effecta) sucks combustion air in. Which can lead to forced draft units being more prone to smoke spillage. And making things like door gaskets even more important as a service/maintenance item. Mine is natural draft. Which is sort of induced since the chimney sucks air in. It doesn't even have any door gaskets to worry about. Personally, I would not want a forced draft boiler in my house.

And don't forget to research how hard or easy they are to clean. Stuff like that is what you will live with long after the purchase price fades away. I might be a bit biased but Varms are the easiest to clean on the market. Check out Smokeless Heat ad banner for more info on those. But there are a few good choices out there.

Thanks for the tip! One question tho: induced draft means your drawing smoke through a fan right? Isn't that going to mean more maintenance? Or are these units clean enough that is not an issue?

 

[Woodman1]

Don't even consider putting a eko inside your house. The smoke spillage is an issue. No big deal in a outbuilding, grounds for divorce inside a house.

 

[Bad LP]

Varm I believe is the easiest boiler to clean by far than any of the others. It’s what attracted me to them so I called and they were great to talk to and as I said honest.
Tarm was also in my short list and when my boiler showed up for sale I jumped on it.
I have no regrets but also realize if it sprung a leak next weekend I’d isolate the boiler from the rest of the system, cut it loose and slide in a new technology unit.

 

[Bad LP]

Don't even consider putting a eko inside your house. The smoke spillage is an issue. No big deal in a outbuilding, grounds for divorce inside a house.

I know there are a lot of EKO lovers but I was warned not to do it so I didn’t.

 

[Woodman1]

Oh I love my eko. That said I would hate it in my house

 

[andym]

Oh I love my eko. That said I would hate it in my house

Adding a boiler room to my shop would be a tempting option. It would provide an easy way to heat my shop. A big advantage of putting the boiler in the house is saving the cost of the underground pipe. $$ plus not ripping up the yard.

I think I'll research some more on the boilers you all recommended. That Attack DPX looks like it might work.

Another question: some boilers have 1-1/2" outputs, while another (same btu output) has 2". Is that the size that needs to be plumbed to storage? Or can the 2" be reduced?

 

[Fred61]

Don't even consider putting a eko inside your house. The smoke spillage is an issue. No big deal in a outbuilding, grounds for divorce inside a house.

I know there are a lot of EKO lovers but I was warned not to do it so I didn’t.

Oh I love my eko. That said I would hate it in my house

Show me the smoke

 

[3fordasho]

.

I think I'll research some more on the boilers you all recommended. That Attack DPX looks like it might work.

Another question: some boilers have 1-1/2" outputs, while another (same btu output) has 2". Is that the size that needs to be plumbed to storage? Or can the 2" be reduced?

I have a DPXL45 - went with 2" black pipe about a foot or two from the boiler connections and then reduced to 1.25" copper. No issues but I would not go smaller than 1.25"

 

[andym]

I have a DPXL45 - went with 2" black pipe about a foot or two from the boiler connections and then reduced to 1.25" copper. No issues but I would not go smaller than 1.25"

Thats good to know, much easier and cheaper. I suppose that's a question for the dealer.
How do you like your boiler?

 

[JohnDolz]

Thats good to know, much easier and cheaper. I suppose that's a question for the dealer.
How do you like your boiler?

The size of the pipes moving water is extremely important for a gasifier boiler because this is how heat is removed from the boiler (remember the idea is to burn as hot and efficient as possible and move to into storage). If the piping does not allow for heat to be transferred fast enough it will result in the boiler overheating, burning inefficient, etc. I am sure an engineer can help you determine what would work or not, otherwise if you guess wrong you got a problem. I have some experience here because I went from a 35kw (requiring 1.25" piping) to a 60kw (requiring 1.5" piping). I changed whatever piping could be reached but did end up with some 1.25" as the last part of the run (to/fro storage) - luckily it worked. Figured if I could at least get all the 90's to spec size that I would be OK.

 

[3fordasho]

Thats good to know, much easier and cheaper. I suppose that's a question for the dealer.
How do you like your boiler?

This is my first heating season with it and no complaints. In fact I am installing a 2nd for my shop. I looked at all the common ones here, Effecta, Froling, Varm, Biomass, EKO, and a few others, for me the Attack had the right set of features, loading capacity, pricing and even flue exit to match my particular install and heating needs. Of these only the first three meet epa ratings for 2020, a requirement I am not concerned with on my installs.
My conclusions are the Froling and Effecta have the most advanced controls and are very nice boilers. Varms are right up there and are the most friendly for cleaning. The Varms that were competitive price wise with my Attack have half the loading box size meaning more reloads during a batch burn. EKO is the best value $$ wise but some have smoke issues on reload if they are not connected to a good drafting chimney. My attack would be fine in a basement install but I have mine installed in a 24x48' outbuilding about 90' from the house so it heats that building and my 3400sq ft house.

 

[ExxWhy]

I installed a Biomass combo 40 boiler with 500 gals of storage last fall in my basement. (walkout to garage, not the kind of thing to haul down the steps!) It's been revolutionary in how effectively and evenly it heats the house. I typically burn in it for 5-7 hours in the afternoon/evening and it's good to go until the next day with the storage. The storage is a KEY piece of the puzzle! 3000 sq ft house with so-so insulation. On the few real cold days we've had, I burned some in the morning too. The house never gets cold. As others have said, the storage and house thermostats do the modulating. Super easy to light. I don't even use kindling, just the leftover charcoal from yesterday with some wood laid on top and 30 seconds with the propane torch. I have found it runs best when I stir it every hour or so depending on the load of wood, not quite set and forget for 8 hours. The efficiency is fantastic, we are burning 1/3 of the wood we used to with the old antique we had previously. (from the 70's!) There is 5 minutes of ash cleaning daily before you start the fire. I have also cleaned behind a cover in the rear bottom twice this season, about a 30 minute job. I did remove the fan to inspect and it was clean in there. We are very very happy with it!

 

[Bad LP]

I installed a Biomass combo 40 boiler with 500 gals of storage last fall in my basement. (walkout to garage, not the kind of thing to haul down the steps!) It's been revolutionary in how effectively and evenly it heats the house. I typically burn in it for 5-7 hours in the afternoon/evening and it's good to go until the next day with the storage. The storage is a KEY piece of the puzzle! 3000 sq ft house with so-so insulation. On the few real cold days we've had, I burned some in the morning too. The house never gets cold. As others have said, the storage and house thermostats do the modulating. Super easy to light. I don't even use kindling, just the leftover charcoal from yesterday with some wood laid on top and 30 seconds with the propane torch. I have found it runs best when I stir it every hour or so depending on the load of wood, not quite set and forget for 8 hours. The efficiency is fantastic, we are burning 1/3 of the wood we used to with the old antique we had previously. (from the 70's!) There is 5 minutes of ash cleaning daily before you start the fire. I have also cleaned behind a cover in the rear bottom twice this season, about a 30 minute job. I did remove the fan to inspect and it was clean in there. We are very very happy with it!

Great point on stirring. I can place the wood in the boiler neater than any good looking stack but bridging always occurs. I don’t care what size wood is being used or any combo thereof.
Break the pile down and look out!!

 

[andym]

This is my first heating season with it and no complaints. In fact I am installing a 2nd for my shop. I looked at all the common ones here, Effecta, Froling, Varm, Biomass, EKO, and a few others, for me the Attack had the right set of features, loading capacity, pricing and even flue exit to match my particular install and heating needs. Of these only the first three meet epa ratings for 2020, a requirement I am not concerned with on my installs.

Does that mean the others can not be purchased for residential use?

 

[3fordasho]

Does that mean the others can not be purchased for residential use?

I can not advise on your local regulatory situation or directly answer your question with any confidence. In my case I am in a rural location and I need binoculars to see my nearest neighbor and a neighbor is likely to be the culprit in a complaint situation. I'm in central boiler smoke dragon country and a clean burning gasifier is not on anybody's radar. Insurance can be another issue but my Attack came with a ul/csa sticker that newhorizon takes care of getting. Generally my ins. company was happy that I was moving the main wood burning appliance out of the basement (wood furnace) and installing the boiler in a lower value out building. I did notice the EKO's are listed as commercial use only, but the Attacks are not. Also the new 2020 EPA regs take effect in May or June IIRC.

 

[andym]

I can not advise on your local regulatory situation or directly answer your question with any confidence. In my case I am in a rural location and I need binoculars to see my nearest neighbor and a neighbor is likely to be the culprit in a complaint situation. I'm in central boiler smoke dragon country and a clean burning gasifier is not on anybody's radar. Insurance can be another issue but my Attack came with a ul/csa sticker that newhorizon takes care of getting. Generally my ins. company was happy that I was moving the main wood burning appliance out of the basement (wood furnace) and installing the boiler in a lower value out building. I did notice the EKO's are listed as commercial use only, but the Attacks are not. Also the new 2020 EPA regs take effect in May or June IIRC.

Im in pretty much the same kind of setting, except with lots more neighbors.

My insurance will be a non issue.

Sounds like dealers will be running good sales in April then?

I love driving through Duluth on my way to visit family in Ontario. I think I could handle living in the land of 10,000 lakes.

 

[andym]

I talked with Chris at tarm today. he is very helpful and definitely knows his stuff. I'm afraid the price of the Effecta boiler is a bit more than I'm willing to pay this year. I think it would be an excellent boiler however. In my comparisons between that and the Attack DPX the 25 inch log that the attack will handle is something that really appeals to me. The price is another thing: the attack is on sale right now for less than 5K. Compared to 8k+ for the Effecta. I do realize the Effecta has a lambda sensor.

Chris told me that it is possible to allow the boiler to do the modulating, but it is just not ideal. The boiler will last longer by doing batch burns. A lambda sensor is a huge advantage if you plan to modulate. However the Effecta only modulates to around 60% Chris is sending me more info around and wants to talk again before I make a decision.

I'm starting to favor the whole idea of batch burning. I will seriously miss sitting and watching the flames dance inside the glass door. I would pay extra for that feature.

Chris explained that idling creates condensation (creosote) inside the boiler as well as the chimney. Allowing the boiler to idle a lot will considerably shorten the life of the boiler. It's not just about efficiency or visible smoke. That is a very important point I had not thought of.

Chris and ??(name unknown) at Newhorizonstore both agreed that 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 pipe is plenty to handle the btu load of these boilers. 1 inch could be used but the gpm would have to be increased to a less than ideal rate.

 

[JohnDolz]

I talked with Chris at tarm today. he is very helpful and definitely knows his stuff. I'm afraid the price of the Effecta boiler is a bit more than I'm willing to pay this year. I think it would be an excellent boiler however. In my comparisons between that and the Attack DPX the 25 inch log that the attack will handle is something that really appeals to me. The price is another thing: the attack is on sale right now for less than 5K. Compared to 8k+ for the Effecta. I do realize the Effecta has a lambda sensor.

Chris told me that it is possible to allow the boiler to do the modulating, but it is just not ideal. The boiler will last longer by doing batch burns. A lambda sensor is a huge advantage if you plan to modulate. However the Effecta only modulates to around 60% Chris is sending me more info around and wants to talk again before I make a decision.

I'm starting to favor the whole idea of batch burning. I will seriously miss sitting and watching the flames dance inside the glass door. I would pay extra for that feature.

Chris explained that idling creates condensation (creosote) inside the boiler as well as the chimney. Allowing the boiler to idle a lot will considerably shorten the life of the boiler. It's not just about efficiency or visible smoke. That is a very important point I had not thought of.

Chris and ??(name unknown) at Newhorizonstore both agreed that 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 pipe is plenty to handle the btu load of these boilers. 1 inch could be used but the gpm would have to be increased to a less than ideal rate.

Appreciate the update. The other thing to consider with the cost delta, along with the lambda sensor are the controls that come built in with the boiler and if you ever think you are going to use them. Think about things like Outdoor reset, would sending different water temps to different zones be beneficial, would you want to heat DHW, etc. As it turns out, I use almost all of the features - not sure if it is because I need them or because they are there. Regardless, if you pursue these types of controls later you will spend a lot more for them. I have no skin in the game as to what boiler you purchase, just my usual advise to someone looking into anything seriously, spend 50% more than you can afford and you will never regret growing into it. You will always regret growing out of something.

 

[andym]

Appreciate the update. The other thing to consider with the cost delta, along with the lambda sensor are the controls that come built in with the boiler and if you ever think you are going to use them. Think about things like Outdoor reset, would sending different water temps to different zones be beneficial, would you want to heat DHW, etc. As it turns out, I use almost all of the features - not sure if it is because I need them or because they are there. Regardless, if you pursue these types of controls later you will spend a lot more for them. I have no skin in the game as to what boiler you purchase, just my usual advise to someone looking into anything seriously, spend 50% more than you can afford and you will never regret growing into it. You will always regret growing out of something.

What boiler do you have again?

The Attack is already more than my initial (and ignorant) budget! What actually got me looking this direction was the $2-3,000 Uni boilers from MbTek. I've pretty much ruled them out, but that's another subject.....

I'm a fairly low tech kinda guy. I'm fairly certain any of the boilers I've looked at will have what I need, but I will examine the options more closely as you suggest.

Will definitely be heating DHW in some way.

 

[JohnDolz]

I have an Effecta and am also a very low tech guy. Sadly the person I purchased my boiler from passed away while I was in the middle of upgrading to a larger boiler, he was supposed to handle everything. This left a hairdresser in Michigan with my boiler, me in Connecticut and a manufacturer in Sweden. Luckily the manufacturer was great (this was prior to Tarm carrying the line) and I learned a lot. Assuming you are like everyone else here, this will become more of a hobby/lifestyle and you will keep pushing for more.......just a guess.

 

[maple1]

About the piping. I would likely stick with whatever the boiler tappings are, between boiler & storage. In my case, that is 1-1/4". You should have storage as close as you can get it to the boiler, as directly connected as you can get it, and if possible storage as high as conveniently possible. That is all to help in convection flow should the power go out while your burning. (But don't rely solely on that for that - build in other contingencies also). And if you wanted to optimize that as much as possible, you could up the size of the piping. It actually likely isn't a bad idea anyway, the cost of bigger black iron between boiler & storage will be negligible when compared to the rest of your costs.