In need of help/advice?

[acosta2269]

Acosta, I think we might be back where we started from: you have an outside air heatform fireplace.

It seems to me the most likely source of the cooling action is cold outside air entering the chamber that surrounds your heatform. This would create a cold box for your insert to live in. Further, your installer would most likely have had to cut through the tubes at the top of the heatform to install his pipe into the first clay liner, which would allow the cold air to flow right into the fireplace cavity itself and cool the heat exchange plenum on the insert directly.

If you haven't done this already, pack the outside air intake with ceramic blanket insulation and seal it on the outside.

Tom,

The installer didn't cut anything when he installed the stove. He simply slid the 1/2 liner into the damper and up into the existing 10" metal liner already in the chimney. The he stuffed the damper area with insulation.

I tried stuffing the outside vent with fiberglass insulation and it made no difference. I also tried incense into the vent and no detectable smell came into the house. I will try to seal up the outside vent better with ceramic blanket insulation.

 

[Hogwildz]

I'm wondering if the shroud is installed incorrectly. The metal shroud should be all sealed off I believe, Hogwildz can give a better explanation of how the shroud gets installed.

Ive explained that ealier in this thread.
I still say close all the old vents to the heatform, have damper block off installed and SEALED WELL & CORRECTLY. I think I also stated that cold air was getting in somehow and mixing with the blown air causing warm not hot air. The fact the when the blower is off, it spikes and when on it cools the outcoming air down. Show me that cold air IS getting in there in a way it should not, hence hes getting only warm air from it when blower is on. I can't hold my had in front of blowing area when mine is on. Its HOT, not warm HOT. I think he is in the right direction. I still say close off ALL heatforn vents inner & outer. I still also think if he has OAK hooked up, that some of that air is getting sucked up to the bloen air area and helping cool things. Just my theory & 2 cents LOL.
He will get it, just a thing of narrowing it down now. Congrats on the new FULL liner & block off plate, thats a must as far as I am concerned.
Just make sure the block off plate is done correctly & sealed correctly. If the top of chimney & damper area are blocked off, Insulation on the blok off plate is not a big concern IMHO. As many have pointed out, that dead air space is an "Insulating" dead air space at that point. I reused the old rock wool from the old block off plate merely cause I had it. If I didn't, I wouldn't have bothered. Sealed tight top & bottom here.

 

[elkimmeg]

I wonder if the original air venralated flue is dumping cold air into the fire box?

Your inspector and I had quite a chat I explained how I viewed toe codes and followed up the next day with code language I faxed to him from the 2006 International Mechanical codes.

Looks like that installer got a crash course in code

BTW I hope you stick around here for a while, as many others have simmilar problems with insert in pre fabs. I counting on you to step in and help them

 

[Hogwildz]

Elk yet again goes above & beyond. Hats off to ya man.
I don't see those who criticize you going out of their way for so many others.
Your a good man Elk. BTW I owe you a case aof beer!

 

[acosta2269]

I wonder if the original air venralated flue is dumping cold air into the fire box?

When I explained my setup to the PE, that's exactly what she thought it was.

Your inspector and I had quite a chat I explained how I viewed toe codes and followed up the next day with code language I faxed to him from the 2006 International Mechanical codes.

Looks like that installer got a crash course in code

BTW I hope you stick around here for a while, as many others have simmilar problems with insert in pre fabs. I counting on you to step in and help them

I will absolutely stick around and help where ever I can. I owe a lot to everyone who has pitched in to help me out. Besides, I think it's going to be a while before i master the art of wood burning.

 

[Hogwildz]

I wanted to ask and forgot, is the full liner extra? Block off plate too? Is he crediting you towards the direct connect he did to go towards the full liner?

 

[acosta2269]

Hey Hogwildz,

I worked it out with the dealerto pay him for the difference between a full liner install and a direct connect. I got prices from a few others so i know the price is fair. He's also going to put in the block off plate at no extra charge. If he installs everything correctly, it seems fair.

Also, I spoke to my new friend Jack today (VP of BAC (dealer for PE's)) and he graciously offered his help in getting me up and running the right way.

Problem is...we're supposed to get a foot of snow tomorrow night, so the installation on Thursday may have to be put on hold. I can't win!

 

[Roospike]

Lets see .................We have on the case ,

jack - pacific energy distributor for New York Ct and New Jersey

thechimneysweep -Tom Oyen Pacific Energy dealer w/ many year experence.

elkimmeg - Don , inspector and huge wood stove guru

Hogwildz - Summit insert owner , self installed .

all the rest of us stove gu-ru's helping out and sit back and relax .......................

POPCORN! ........GET YOUR POPCORN!

 

[Hogwildz]

Lets see .................We have on the case ,

jack - pacific energy distributor for New York Ct and New Jersey

thechimneysweep -Tom Oyen Pacific Energy dealer w/ many year experence.

elkimmeg - Don , inspector and huge wood stove guru

Hogwildz - Summit insert owner , self installed .

all the rest of us stove gu-ru's helping out and sit back and relax .......................

POPCORN! ........GET YOUR POPCORN!

Well I want EXTRA, REAL, artery clogging butter on mine please! Just drown mine!

 

[FINLAND]

FINNISH fireplaces and totally new way to split the wood.VIPUKIRVES/LEVERAXE.
www.tulikivi.fi
www.nunnauuni.fi
www.vipukirves.fi
Best regards from FINLAND

 

[begreen]

Cool it with the ads Finland. If you want to impress, split some elm with that thing.

 

[jjbaer]

So...what was the final result......did you get it to where it's putting out more heat? My thoughts (without knowing the entire setup) would be the following combination of events which I think some or all has already been mentioned by others here but might be summarized:

That with no block-off plate and only a partial liner, that when the stove runs it "entrains" (draws) room air AND pulls in outside colder air through the outside air vents, into the chimney. This creates a vacuum on your home which then pulls in additional cold replacement air from the outside through every nook and cranny in your home, thus making for a cold house. This air has but one pathway and that's into the surround and up the chimney. In taking this path the cold air (especially if it's coming from the outside and into the hearth area and out the chimney) passes by the heat shroud, cools it and your blower delivers luke-warm air......bottom line seems to be that cold air is somehow leaking into the pathway that the fan circulates room air into and/or cold air is chilling the outer heat shroud, both of which result in significantly lowered output temperatures......

So...what was the final verdict?

 

[jjbaer]

Another thought: what is the temp reading BEHIND the surround when the unit is running......? If it's very cold, well, there's part of your answer...that the heat shield might be getting cooled so much by entrained air that it's blowing 78F air into your room......

 

[jjbaer]

So...what was the final outcome on your stove? Did they fix it, replace it or what? Also, what were the results on the analysis of the substance on your walls?

Thanks, Tom. I completely agree about the full liner and definitely want to install one. I'm just thinking of ways to get the installer to come back and install it, and offsetting the money I already paid him for the half assed install he did the first time. I figured if it was required by code or the manufacturer then it was clearly his fault and he would have to do re-do properly using the full liner. I've already found out he used insulation incorrectly and needs to correct that problem. I trying to figure a way for him to correct the full flue liner as well.


Anyone have any suggestions?

A full liner is going to cost extra, no way around that. I highly doubt he will even credit you for the direct connect towards the full liner. Given the BS he has already handed you. You may have to put up the extra. Just be sure he doesn't ream you in retaliation for the insulation & other issues.

I don't mind paying for the difference in the liner cost and the block off plate, but I'd want him to credit me back for the direct liner and the BS installation job he did the fist time.

What is a reasonable price for a full liner install along with a block off plate (all materials and labor)?

 

[FINLAND]

Cool it with the ads Finland. If you want to impress, split some elm with that thing.

Sorry for this delay, but here you are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJt-UR9f_a4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acBdvv8wA6w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLs1YI68Z6k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkI0Shz9Hf0

 

[BrowningBAR]

Cool it with the ads Finland. If you want to impress, split some elm with that thing.

Sorry for this delay, but here you are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJt-UR9f_a4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acBdvv8wA6w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLs1YI68Z6k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkI0Shz9Hf0

Now I need to pee.

 

[Todd]

Guess he showed you Begreen. :lol: That Elm over in Finland doesn't look like the stringy crap we have over here but that axe looks like it works just fine and I like how it turns on it's side and pushes the split away. Some of those splits were flying pretty good, the tire is a good idea or even a bungi cord wrapped around the round would help. Oh, and it also has a good long handle unlike the Fiskars.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Oh, and it also has a good long handle unlike the Fiskars.

Good god, not that again.

 

[begreen]

Took him long enough, that was a couple years ago. Agreed, that is nothing like the elm we have growing. But now, I want to see him whack away at my 36-48" doug fir rounds. He can practice all day. I'll even shoot the video.

 

[FINLAND]

Took him long enough, that was a couple years ago. Agreed, that is nothing like the elm we have growing. But now, I want to see him whack away at my 36-48" doug fir rounds. He can practice all day. I'll even shoot the video.

The diameter of the block does not make any difference / difficulty.
You simply take the splits from the side of the block. Easy.

http://www.vipukirves.fi/kuvagalleria/pages/Vipukirves_h_jpg.htm

http://www.vipukirves.fi/kuvagalleria/pages/Vipukirves_l_jpg.htm

http://www.vipukirves.fi/kuvagalleria/pages/Vipukirves_n_jpg.htm

http://www.vipukirves.fi/kuvagalleria/pages/Vipukirves_nn_jpg.htm

http://www.vipukirves.fi/kuvagalleria/pages/Vipukirves_o_jpg.htm

http://www.vipukirves.fi/kuvagalleria/pages/Vipukirves_p_jpg.htm

 

[ansehnlich1]

I guarantee that axe ain't goin' through the Pennsylvania Elm growin' on my land. For this ole country boy the argument is over, done, finit, you name it.

Whatever you are splittin in your neck of the woods AIN'T the stuff that grows on my ground.

 

[firefighterjake]

Holy cow . . . zombie thread . . . it's alive . . . what was once dead now lives . . .

 

[begreen]

Time for the silver bullet and consecrated stake.