If you were starting from the beginning, what would you do?

[Hydronics]

Heaterman,
What do you mean by a home run system? If they run steady and ramp up/down where are the control and sensor placed?
Would you recommend these instead of in-floor in new construction also?

 

[ewdudley]

What do you mean by a home run system? If they run steady and ramp up/down where are the control and sensor placed?
Would you recommend these instead of in-floor in new construction also?

http://www.pmmag.com/Articles/Column/823dc940b9fc7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

 

[heaterman]

Heaterman,
What do you mean by a home run system? If they run steady and ramp up/down where are the control and sensor placed?
Would you recommend these instead of in-floor in new construction also?

Simply put, a home run system for panel rads is nothing more than a central manifold from which all rads are piped. The manifold pump is controlled via any number of inputs such as an outdoor air sensor, room air sensor or whatever. Each panel rad is usually equipped with a thermostatic radiator valve mounted on the rad itself. The TRV senses room temp and will open or close off flow corresponding to that, only for the rad it's attached to. Each radiator on the manifold operates independently of the others. You can have, in effect, a "zone" for each room even though all the rads are served from the same manifold.
The manifold itself is little different than one would use for a radiant floor system. Each loop coming off the manifold must have isolation valves for supply and return.

I have radiant in my living room along with a panel rad and panels throughout the rest of the main floor. The second floor is baseboard. Personally, I don't know if I would make the investment in the radiant floor again or not. It feels great on the feet but the other rooms with panel rads alone are exceedingly comfortable also, minus the "cozy toes" factor. Customers who also have both are nearly universal in saying the same thing.
If you are working with a new structure that happens to have a poured slab floor in the plan to begin with, then it's a no brainer. Go with the radiant floor. There are some caveats' to that also but I could/should probably write a book about that some day.

 

[EffectaBoilerUser (USA)]

I would definately go with a seperate gasifier and an LP boiler as back up (the old saying "jack of all trades, master of none" really does apply here).

Regarding storage, I prefer pressurized storage as it results in a better system with less on-going maintenance.

There are many boilers on the market but I would make sure the boiler has the lambda control system. This system makes it much easier to start a fire and once started ensures that the combustion temperatures remain at the most efficient levels by automatically opening and closing the primary and secondary draft controls.

Prior to my new effecta lambda 35 I used an EKO40 for 2 winters and thus have plenty of experience with both boilers.

I currently use an effecta lambda 35 with 1,000 gallons of storage and use an Azel setpoint controller to automatically switch to propane backup when the temperature in the tanks get lower than 140F (I can set this to any temp. but have determined that 140F is best for my setup of baseboard and in-floor).

Thanks,

EBU

 

[Como]

I am putting in a system at the moment. Panel radiators. We have a lot as we are a small hotel and they have been sized to heat the building using 140F water.

Today the HE Propane Boiler (Triangle Tube) went live, that can put out 180F water, as you can imagine that meant there was a lot of heat coming out of the radiators.

Later the primary source will be wood.

 

[heaterman]

"If TRVs are used, be sure to install a differential pressure bypass valve to prevent the circulator from "dead heading" (e.g. operating when none of the TRVs or zone valves is open). Adjust the knob on the differential pressure bypass valve so that it just begins bypassing flow when all the zone circuits are on, then increase the pressure setting just a tad. As the zones close off, the bypass valve will take an increasing percentage of the manifold flow and prevent the circulator from imposing a high-pressure differential on the circuits that remain open. The piping remains quiet and the customer remains happy."

The above quote is from Siggy's article, which was written in 2001. It should be noted that the differential pressure bypass valve he mentioned way back then is no longer needed if a person uses a variable speed circ ala Wilo or Grundfos. Both can sense the pressure change when everything is "off" and throttle down to nothing. It staggers me to realize how much has changed in the hydronic heating world in the last 10 years. Methods which had been in place for nearly a century, and which are sadly still applied in a lot of cases, have become obsolete within the past 8-10 years. Thanks to variable speed electronic motor control.

 

[ewdudley]

"If TRVs are used, be sure to install a differential pressure bypass valve to prevent the circulator from "dead heading" (e.g. operating when none of the TRVs or zone valves is open). Adjust the knob on the differential pressure bypass valve so that it just begins bypassing flow when all the zone circuits are on, then increase the pressure setting just a tad. As the zones close off, the bypass valve will take an increasing percentage of the manifold flow and prevent the circulator from imposing a high-pressure differential on the circuits that remain open. The piping remains quiet and the customer remains happy."

The above quote is from Siggy's article, which was written in 2001. It should be noted that the differential pressure bypass valve he mentioned way back then is no longer needed if a person uses a variable speed circ ala Wilo or Grundfos. Both can sense the pressure change when everything is "off" and throttle down to nothing. It staggers me to realize how much has changed in the hydronic heating world in the last 10 years. Methods which had been in place for nearly a century, and which are sadly still applied in a lot of cases, have become obsolete within the past 8-10 years. Thanks to variable speed electronic motor control.

Good catch.

I had googled for 'Siegenthaler' and 'homerun' and pasted the first halfway relevant article that came up.

Here's one of several of his later articles that explore the advantages of ECM cirulators in homerun panel circuit based systems:

http://www.pmengineer.com/Articles/Cover_Story/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000187323

--ewd

 

[heaterman]

"If TRVs are used, be sure to install a differential pressure bypass valve to prevent the circulator from "dead heading" (e.g. operating when none of the TRVs or zone valves is open). Adjust the knob on the differential pressure bypass valve so that it just begins bypassing flow when all the zone circuits are on, then increase the pressure setting just a tad. As the zones close off, the bypass valve will take an increasing percentage of the manifold flow and prevent the circulator from imposing a high-pressure differential on the circuits that remain open. The piping remains quiet and the customer remains happy."

The above quote is from Siggy's article, which was written in 2001. It should be noted that the differential pressure bypass valve he mentioned way back then is no longer needed if a person uses a variable speed circ ala Wilo or Grundfos. Both can sense the pressure change when everything is "off" and throttle down to nothing. It staggers me to realize how much has changed in the hydronic heating world in the last 10 years. Methods which had been in place for nearly a century, and which are sadly still applied in a lot of cases, have become obsolete within the past 8-10 years. Thanks to variable speed electronic motor control.

Good catch.

I had googled for 'Siegenthaler' and 'homerun' and pasted the first halfway relevant article that came up.

Here's one of several of his later articles that explore the advantages of ECM cirulators in homerun panel circuit based systems:

http://www.pmengineer.com/Articles/Cover_Story/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000187323

--ewd

There ya go!
Mmmmmm........panel rads, variable speed pumps, the ultimate room by room control, home run piping, proportional heat output.......what's not to love about the performance of a system like that.

 

[heaterman]

I am putting in a system at the moment. Panel radiators. We have a lot as we are a small hotel and they have been sized to heat the building using 140F water.

Today the HE Propane Boiler (Triangle Tube) went live, that can put out 180F water, as you can imagine that meant there was a lot of heat coming out of the radiators.

Later the primary source will be wood.

Hey David. What brand of panel rads are you installing? Excellent move on the 140* design water temp! That will keep the TT boiler right where it needs to be for efficient operation. Are you using an ECM circ on your manifold?

 

[Chumble Spuzz]

Hi there,

Been lurking here for awhile and this thread has brought me out of the woodwork so to speak. Didn't want to thread-jack, but I'm in the same position as the OP and am now heavily investigating homerun systems with ECM circulation. I've searched the forum and the web and am having a difficult time learning about the finer points of this system. Can anyone comment on the suitability of the Viega Manabloc as a distribution manifold? Any other preferences? The Manabloc makes it look like homerun is for more than just heating - the Viega literature shows the Manabloc being used for all of the domestic water needs as well. If you were going to use this product and you needed to replace your domestic plumming as well, would you purchase two manifolds - one for heating and one for domestic water? Are there any other resources on the web that talk about the finer points of homerun distribution? I get the basics thanks to some excellent posts earlier in this thread!

Thanks,

CS

 

[heaterman]

Hi there,

Been lurking here for awhile and this thread has brought me out of the woodwork so to speak. Didn't want to thread-jack, but I'm in the same position as the OP and am now heavily investigating homerun systems with ECM circulation. I've searched the forum and the web and am having a difficult time learning about the finer points of this system. Can anyone comment on the suitability of the Viega Manabloc as a distribution manifold? Any other preferences? The Manabloc makes it look like homerun is for more than just heating - the Viega literature shows the Manabloc being used for all of the domestic water needs as well. If you were going to use this product and you needed to replace your domestic plumming as well, would you purchase two manifolds - one for heating and one for domestic water? Are there any other resources on the web that talk about the finer points of homerun distribution? I get the basics thanks to some excellent posts earlier in this thread!

Thanks,

CS

The Manabloc is domestic water only and not intended for heating purposes. I use Viega's 157** stainless steel series which provides shutoff and balancing valves for each loop. Nice to have the balancing valve on the return side if loop lengths vary a lot. (like they typically do)
You are correct though, the Manabloc is exactly that; a home run piping system for domestic water supply.

 

[Chumble Spuzz]

Thanks heaterman - what an embarrasing mistake that would have been!

 

[Como]

I am putting in a system at the moment. Panel radiators. We have a lot as we are a small hotel and they have been sized to heat the building using 140F water.

Today the HE Propane Boiler (Triangle Tube) went live, that can put out 180F water, as you can imagine that meant there was a lot of heat coming out of the radiators.

Later the primary source will be wood.

Hey David. What brand of panel rads are you installing? Excellent move on the 140* design water temp! That will keep the TT boiler right where it needs to be for efficient operation. Are you using an ECM circ on your manifold?

Dianorm

Embarrassed to say I did not know what an ECM circ was, just looked it up, that would be the rather pricey Grundfos 240v puppy.

I had to use a lot 3x radiators to keep the wall space reasonable. Dianorm are the only ones I know available. Nice radiators. We ran the Propane this week with 180F water, they certainly put the heat out...

 

[hemlock]

I might take some heat for this (no pun intended), but I would at least rough in for ductwork for possible future considerations. Once you have a hydronic system - that's it. You've condemed yourself to a boiler for good. Hydronic, slab heat is good to a point, so long as you have cheap fuel. What some don't consider with a slab is that you lose an element of control. It becomes somewhat inefficient to turn the heat up or down according to weather. I have in floor/radiant, and should I ever build a house from the ground up, I would personally avoid hydronic, or at the very least, rough in ductwork - and at least have the option down the road of going with a simpler, cheaper furnace, be it pellet, wood, oil, gas, etc....

 

[Como]

I had never come across forced air heating in a domestic situation before moving to the US. I had always thought of it as a function of cheap energy. Cheap install being a better deal than not very expensive operation. And also the dual use of air con.

I can not think of a way of heating air that can not be used for heating water.

I agree radiant infloor is overkill for a well insulated new build. A couple of radiators or baseboard radiant, not radiators, is another issue.

 

[pybyr]

I might take some heat for this (no pun intended), but I would at least rough in for ductwork for possible future considerations. Once you have a hydronic system - that's it. You've condemed yourself to a boiler for good. Hydronic, slab heat is good to a point, so long as you have cheap fuel. What some don't consider with a slab is that you lose an element of control. It becomes somewhat inefficient to turn the heat up or down according to weather. I have in floor/radiant, and should I ever build a house from the ground up, I would personally avoid hydronic, or at the very least, rough in ductwork - and at least have the option down the road of going with a simpler, cheaper furnace, be it pellet, wood, oil, gas, etc....

As someone with a forced air system, I respectfully disagree. I have the system that I have for a variety of reasons (mostly that the house started with an air-based system and it has so far been easier to work with it than to make a total change-over).

I am also not one who inherently detests forced air (some people hate it for noise, air movement, dust movement, and electrical consumption for the blower (air is not a great heat exchange medium, so you need to blow a lot more of it around, a lot more often, compared to the inherent effectiveness of water for heat exchange). A lot depends on whether the air system is done well (ducts properly sized and located, etc). The difference between a shoddy forced air system and one that has been properly designed and installed is immense.

Having said all that, if I were working from a clean slate or doing even a major rennovation with what I know now from working on and living with a forced air system, I would NEVER go with forced air unless it were a big priority to also be able to have central air conditioning. Even a well-designed and well operated forced air system does create substantially more noise, air movement, dust movement, and electrical consumption than a well-implemented hydronic system. A well-designed and well-installed duct system involves a substantial amount of material cost and plenty of labor cost (or lots of your own time fitting tin). It's somewhere between prohibitively complex/ expensive and downright impossible to effectively "zone" air very much, so you have to heat an entire space, or nothing at all, which means that you're probably throwing significant unneeded heat into spaces that you might otherwise run cooler for at least significant portions of the time.

Air's one big point- the ability to ramp up temperature relatively quickly- can be matched or bettered by panel radiators or re-used cast iron radiators. Forced air also creates a much greater potential for pressure imbalance between different parts of a structure, which will amplify any air leakage with the outside.

I know my air system pretty well, having had a hand in installing and extending and maintaining it. It does the job, and does it reasonably well. I don't detest it, but with having gotten to know it very well, and also having been introduced to some of the other technology that is out there, I'd NEVER pick forced air from a full array of heating possibilities.

 

[hemlock]

I might take some heat for this (no pun intended), but I would at least rough in for ductwork for possible future considerations. Once you have a hydronic system - that's it. You've condemed yourself to a boiler for good. Hydronic, slab heat is good to a point, so long as you have cheap fuel. What some don't consider with a slab is that you lose an element of control. It becomes somewhat inefficient to turn the heat up or down according to weather. I have in floor/radiant, and should I ever build a house from the ground up, I would personally avoid hydronic, or at the very least, rough in ductwork - and at least have the option down the road of going with a simpler, cheaper furnace, be it pellet, wood, oil, gas, etc....

As someone with a forced air system, I respectfully disagree. I have the system that I have for a variety of reasons (mostly that the house started with an air-based system and it has so far been easier to work with it than to make a total change-over).

I am also not one who inherently detests forced air (some people hate it for noise, air movement, dust movement, and electrical consumption for the blower (air is not a great heat exchange medium, so you need to blow a lot more of it around, a lot more often, compared to the inherent effectiveness of water for heat exchange). A lot depends on whether the air system is done well (ducts properly sized and located, etc). The difference between a shoddy forced air system and one that has been properly designed and installed is immense.

Having said all that, if I were working from a clean slate or doing even a major rennovation with what I know now from working on and living with a forced air system, I would NEVER go with forced air unless it were a big priority to also be able to have central air conditioning. Even a well-designed and well operated forced air system does create substantially more noise, air movement, dust movement, and electrical consumption than a well-implemented hydronic system. A well-designed and well-installed duct system involves a substantial amount of material cost and plenty of labor cost (or lots of your own time fitting tin). It's somewhere between prohibitively complex/ expensive and downright impossible to effectively "zone" air very much, so you have to heat an entire space, or nothing at all, which means that you're probably throwing significant unneeded heat into spaces that you might otherwise run cooler for at least significant portions of the time.

Air's one big point- the ability to ramp up temperature relatively quickly- can be matched or bettered by panel radiators or re-used cast iron radiators. Forced air also creates a much greater potential for pressure imbalance between different parts of a structure, which will amplify any air leakage with the outside.

I know my air system pretty well, having had a hand in installing and extending and maintaining it. It does the job, and does it reasonably well. I don't detest it, but with having gotten to know it very well, and also having been introduced to some of the other technology that is out there, I'd NEVER pick forced air from a full array of heating possibilities.

Fair enough - want to swap systems! ;-) . My dislike of radiant comes from my own system - and the lack of control. The boiler running it is of the set-up that maintains a temp. differential of about 20F. Even with no demand for heat, the boiler still fires several time over a 24 hour period simply to maintain that internal temp. differential. Not very efficient in my opinion. (Why I got a wood stove).
Then there is the issue of heating an entire slab controlled by one thermostat. You are basically stuck with it at whatever temp you set it at because turning the stats up and down with such a large mass is inefficient. On a sunny day, or warmer day for example, and there is little to no heat load, it would be impractical to turn the stat down on the slab.
I think it is largely dependant on the individual home and the relative climate. Radiant/hydronic is not automatically the best system for every home. A very well insulated, sealed, etc home would not likely see any huge cost savings from a radiant system.
As for my persoanl choice if I could start from scratch - I'd keep it simple. A wood stove(s) and a propane furnace in the cellar for backup.

 

[Willman]

On a sunny day, or warmer day for example, and there is little to no heat load

That is precisely why an outdoor reset is called for in a hydronic system.

http://www.pmengineer.com/Articles/Feature_Article/cdd55d5472298010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

Will