I think my natural gas furnace is more efficient than running my new pellet stove.

[elkimmeg]

I'm wrong I was not thinking in terms of 1500 sq ft but the common homes I inspect in my town median mediam sale price 763k that includes new and re-sales.

Crapers are being bought for 350k to be torn down

HVAC on the homes in my town cost in the 10/12 range including the duct work and two furnaces up and down colplet separate duct systems to both furnaces
Where ther is no NG then an oil boiler is installed supplying the heat to 2 or 3 exchangers thats from what my think was We have not had a 1500 ft home here in 10 or 15 years
some additions are that size..

I will admit I was not thinking and making the comparisons correctly.

 

[elkimmeg]

I'm wrong I was not thinking in terms of 1500 sq ft but the common homes I inspect in my town median mediam sale price 763k that includes new and re-sales.

Crapers are being bought for 350k to be torn down

HVAC on the homes in my town cost in the 10/12 range including the duct work and two furnaces up and down colplet separate duct systems to both furnaces
Where ther is no NG then an oil boiler is installed supplying the heat to 2 or 3 exchangers thats from what my think was We have not had a 1500 ft home here in 10 or 15 years
some additions are that size..

I will admit I was not thinking and making the comparisons correctly.

Still if I could heat for $2.50 a day and not factor any cost for installation of replacement or repairs I want that situation More time for me to do other things and not process wood worry about feeding 2 stoves more gollf morse fishing a more time to work on clasic cars What honey you have more time more time to do the honey do list

 

[CrazyAboutOrchids]

New ThermoPride OH6 oil burning furnace installed for less than 4500.00 this past fall. Included upgraded ECM motor, April-Aire model 400 water efficient humidifier, April-Aire 2200 air cleaner. My home is 2500 sq feet in Western CT.

I did receive estimate for up to 6000.00 for a new furnace, also ThermoPride, but it was one that was grossly oversized for my home.

 

[laynes69]

Last year I had 2 estimates to install all new ductwork. One company was 3200, the other was 3800. All ducts had to be reconfigured. My cost was 1200 dollars. Also a few years ago our old home was 1300 square feet. We had a new cheaper furnace installed. 92+ percent efficient, an aluminum liner in the chimney for the waterheater, a new water heater flue pipe. Final bill was 1400 dollars. Our gas bills went from 350 to 125. No budget, and when we moved out our highest bill for the winter was 135. Our home had all gas appliances and furnace. I miss those lower bills.

 

[GVA]

Damn us here on the east coast get screwed again That's a decent price.
21 therms here last month with just HW a Dryer= $52.02
But still 460 thousand BTU's to heat a house and water and dryer? How warm has it been there?

That's actually 4.6 million BTU's since there's 100,000 BTU's per CCF

Thanks my dp was off

 

[elkimmeg]

think my natural gas furnace is more efficient than running my new pellet stove.

this is a fair accesment newer gas furnaces can reach up to 98% effeciency
decent pellet stoves 82 % the original statement is true the energy code willnot allow a boiler/ or furnace to be installed under 80% effeciency

Even my 30 year old oil burner tested out to 81 % after the cleanout and re-setting the electrode gap

Actually it is more effecient than that It has not been used this year for heat only hot water.

Funny story Thanksgiving my Mother in law visits and stays over. first thing when she arrives is the twist on the thermostat from either my wife or her mother.

I mean the stoves are crusing along at 72 but that is never good enough.

so I disconnected a wire to the zone valves they can play with the theromstat all they want. To play the game I turn it back to 68 they turn it back up.
it never went below 72 infact after the oven baked the bird it was 76 and I was opening the doors.
well I have yet to re-conect the wires

 

[jimkelt]

in the summer my bill is only around $30, I run the following NG appliances

Remember that Natural Gas prices have a pretty wide price swing from winter to summer months, and sometimes even from month to month. NG costs much less in the summer, and much more in the winter.

 

[vgrund]

I mean the stoves are crusing along at 72 but that is never good enough.

so I disconnected a wire to the zone valves they can play with the theromstat all they want. To play the game I turn it back to 68 they turn it back up.
it never went below 72 infact after the oven baked the bird it was 76 and I was opening the doors.
well I have yet to re-conect the wires

Classic. I have a MIL who enjoys similar temps and always bitches about our 66 degree thermostat setting. I'm a bit more confrontational. I simply engage the child lock on all four of my electronic thermostats. One time, when she insisted on visiting at a very inconvenient time, I had the 'stats locked at 64. It was a short visit.

Victor

 

[Jabberwocky]

in the summer my bill is only around $30, I run the following NG appliances
Forced air furnace
range/oven
dryer
hot water
BBQ

In the summer my bill is $50.00 and all I have going is hot water. 2 adults and 2 babies.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I would run it 24/7 if it didn't cost so much.

Below is my gas bill for December. It was pretty warm this year, so it's a little low. My house is about 1600 square feet finished. The furnace is only a year old.

GAS CHARGES
Rate: SVF Residential 12/05/06 to 01/06/07 32 billing days
Total ccf 46
Company Reading 01/06/07 8841
Company Reading 12/05/06 8795
46 ccf x 0.988 pressure x 1.010 BTU factor = 46 therms
Meter No:A93202232 Basic Service Charge 10.00
Delivery Charge 46 x 0.23734 10.92
Pipeline Transport Charge 46 x 0.06955 3.20
Gas Supply Charge 46 x 0.78261 36.00
5.00 % Gas Franchise Fee 3.01
Total $63.13

I'm seeing twice the delivery charge here in Massachusetts (Keyspan Co.)
Your gas supply charge is 0.78 per therm. Mine is 1.36 for the same month.

Where are you from Iowa? Hmmm lemme guess .... the corn is cheap, too.

 

[GVA]

I would run it 24/7 if it didn't cost so much.

Below is my gas bill for December. It was pretty warm this year, so it's a little low. My house is about 1600 square feet finished. The furnace is only a year old.

GAS CHARGES
Rate: SVF Residential 12/05/06 to 01/06/07 32 billing days
Total ccf 46
Company Reading 01/06/07 8841
Company Reading 12/05/06 8795
46 ccf x 0.988 pressure x 1.010 BTU factor = 46 therms
Meter No:A93202232 Basic Service Charge 10.00
Delivery Charge 46 x 0.23734 10.92
Pipeline Transport Charge 46 x 0.06955 3.20
Gas Supply Charge 46 x 0.78261 36.00
5.00 % Gas Franchise Fee 3.01
Total $63.13

I'm seeing twice the delivery charge here in Massachusetts (Keyspan Co.)
Your gas supply charge is 0.78 per therm. Mine is 1.36 for the same month.

Where are you from Iowa? Hmmm lemme guess .... the corn is cheap, too.

Yeah Keyspan...... when it's all said and done here in Mass anyways we pay about $2 a therm after all the other charges....

 

[Island-Doc]

Hmm

My oil boiler went through about $1000 worth of oil just for the month of January, keeping the house at about 65 degrees in the morning and evening, 60 in the daytime and 62 at night.

I think ANYTHING would probably be cheaper than that.

But I think that given what you were paying originally for NG it's going to be pretty hard to save a whole lot of money.

 

[GVA]

This is from an old post...
And I can be somewhat sarcastic at times....

So My price per therm is $.3784..... Damn that’s a good price I’ll go back to NG…
Oh wait there’s more…
$.4342 per day charge just for having the privelige of having gas enter your home…
distribution adjustment.. $.05640 PER THERM......
That is under gas delivery charge…
NEXT
Gas supply charge....... are ya ready....... $1.36 per therm................ Oh yeah....... woohoo
let’s figure it out here
the per day charge for 30 days $13.026
300 therms at .3784 =$113.52
dist adjustment=$16.92
gas supply charge=$408.00

total=$551.466 per month

avg $1.838 per therm again this is input BTU’s since the gas co has no Idea what I have on the other side of the wall.......
Thats about $22.88 per million BTU’s.................................. And I’m sorry these are winter rates they change back to the normal rates in April.....

Oh yeah and the minimum charge I left out.
My HW and gas Dryer is all I have hooked up right now
so this last month 21 therms my bill $52 bucks, wow ......................................... I’m going back to gas.........

I hate to open this can o' worms again..........

 

[webbie]

$1.84 per 100,00 BTU input.....

A bag of wood pellets at $5.00 (current average delivered price)
contains 40x8500 BTU - or 340,000 BTU

So the 1.84 would buy you you about 110,000 input BTUs.

Very close.........

 

[GVA]

There must be some sort of magic happening in peoples homes then......

I'm sure if I kept my house at 65* then that ton of pellets would last me 60 days instead of say 40 days................. Then I could save even more money....
I must be missing the magic of the missing BTU's of a pellet stove.....
HMMM just seems that if you have a pellet stove you're getting F'ed according to certain info....
I guess theoretical #s versus actual #s trump the data huh???????????
I'ts late I'll deal with this later......................................................................................................................

 

[begreen]

Not magic, but often it's ductwork heat loss. There is frequently a lot more directly appreciable heat when the source is in the room. If the ductwork or piping is losing a lot of heat, then the room may be cooler and the bill may be a lot higher for the central heating system vs a room or large area heater.

 

[elkimmeg]

35% Duct work thansmission losses are common All duct work joints should be duck mastic sealed and R 5.0 or better insulated. One of the greatest areas of energy savings improvements that can be done.. Also check you Furnace many are not gasket sealed all that well and leak quite a bit, Lots of time the 200 degree HVAC tape is needed to prevent leakage

Duct sealing can be done also with the same tape

One manufacturer is Hardcast WWW.Hardcast.com 972-442-6545

Called Foil grip
1402-181BFX Rated for 22o degrees

UL listed and approved 181B-FX
17NF

 

[Highbeam]

I think ELk and BG are poiting out that though the NG furnace is at least 80% efficienct at producing heat, 35% of that heat is lost before it gets to your home. An 80% efficient pellet stove dumps 100% of that 80% into the living space. So you can buy input btus, you can buy an efficient device to make heat from the btus, and then you can have an efficienct means to deliver the heat to your home. All three of those stages must be considered unless you simply want to compare real world numbers, aka "my bill this month". That's the magic the GVA may be speaking of, the three stages.

A fourth stage that must be considered at the same time is heat lost from the home through its envelope but that stage is constant regardless of heating system.

I'm in a similar boat with considering which fuel source to add to my home as a backup source other than those lousy wall heaters. I wish NG was available since it is pretty cheap here in the NW.

 

[slowzuki]

The duct loss is only lost if your HVAC is routed in the attic space, outside walls, or unheated garage/basement. Most are routed in interior walls so the heat is only lost to the house itself.

 

[webbie]

There must be some sort of magic happening in peoples homes then......

I guess theoretical #s versus actual #s trump the data huh???????????
I'ts late I'll deal with this later......................................................................................................................

Sorry, but I was raised secular.

Physics is Physics and a BTU is a BTU. Yes, there can be duct work losses, yes certain pellet stoves may be less efficient and others more. Yes, Yes, Yes.....

BUT, the end result is still the same. If you replaced your pellet stove with a freestanding NG stove stove, and the fuel costs were as above, the results would be identical....actually, the gas stove would probably win since it turns off and on quicker in most cases. You also would have no dust and no hernia, and it would not cost you $150 yearly for service.

Man, this honesty thing is really killing me!
see:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/7363/

There is no magic, no tooth fairy, no WMD, and no nuclear pellets. All of this is just fiction.
There is, however, a human tendency called the "I refuse to admit I spent $800 on a turkey syndrome", which is a whole nother story all together.....

There is yet another theory which states "anything which appears to be too good usually isn't"
And still another which states "perpetual motion machines are NOT accepted in any form by the US Patent Office".

Taken together, they all mean that most buyers AND sellers really have little idea of the savings other than their own "UFO Sightings", which are of course true.

 

[begreen]

Agreed, though a lot of people think of it as either or.

Note that I said ductwork losses "can" be significant. Of course that's not always the case. But there are many installations with the primary ductwork in crawlspaces or cold basements that experience significant heat loss. Often this ductwork is not (or poorly) insulated. So when they put an area heater in the livingroom, voila, more heat for less fuel.

We often see cases here where a wood/pellet/gas/coal stove is covering up other home deficiencies. I was explaining why *some* folks see such a difference in fuel consumption when the put an area heater in their home, be it wood, pellet or gas. I put in a pellet stove because I knew that the ductwork in the crawlspace was uninsulated and I wasn't about to try to bellycrawl in to fix it and supply the rats with another generation of bedding. So for 5 years the pellet stove carried the house heating load at a significant savings from the central propane heater due to less heat loss and lowerer fuel cost. YMMV. Now we have a tight crawlspace and insulated ducts and we're doing a lot more central heating.

 

[GVA]

Wow web I can't believe your actually saying that I should burn NG.
I'll go and buy a NG stove and hook it up this weekend, and keep those fossil fuels burning good call..
Even better yet do they make a stove for my dining room that burns oil?

Thanks for all you're help.. :smirk:

 

[GVA]

And it's good to see These prices are still in line here...... they updated the site it was $325 2 months ago

(broken link removed to http://www.mywoodenergy.com/2.html)

 

[Highbeam]

Holy smokes GVA, those firewood prices don't even include delivery.

I can admit that I bought a turkey this year. A kerosene heater before I adequately researched kerosene prices. It is a backup for the wood insert if the power goes out but boy is it expensive to fuel. It turns out that I can heat pretty well with an insert and without power. At least the lesson didn't hurt my wallet too bad.

 

[webbie]

Wow web I can't believe your actually saying that I should burn NG.
I'll go and buy a NG stove and hook it up this weekend, and keep those fossil fuels burning good call..
Even better yet do they make a stove for my dining room that burns oil?

Thanks for all you're help.. :smirk:

Nah, but when we are talking about FACTS, we have to stick to them. Pellets are NOT vintage cars of motorcyles or anything like that - they are fuel. You discussed the "high" price of NG (or someone did in this thread_. I simply am giving factual information as far as BTUS......of course, I am adding some human behavior issues that explain WHY folks burn pellets. But there are more sane (then again, that is a judgment) reasons for burning pellets....which are like:
Renewable Fuel
Supporting the companies that make 'em
Loving gadgets
Enjoying watching the blowtorch....
and on and on.

You see (sitting on the couch now), back in 1979 when the first customer came in my store after leaving the Buck Stove Store - and asked me if my stoves would heat all night on 2 logs like a Buck - and then asked if mine could COOL the house also like the BUCK (yes, they actually claimed you could put some frozen milk jugs full of water in it and turn the fans on) - well, ever since that day I VOWED to educate consumers......and I'm still doing it!

NG, BTW, is an A-1 fuel - amazingly clean and when you consider the amounts of it used, quite "green".