Hybrid. Theory and discussion. Not comparison
- Thread starter JA600L
- Start date
-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil. -
Super Cedar firestarters 30% discount Use code Hearth2024 Click here
- Status
a) No you didn't but you agreed with Highbeam on his post that did say it explicitly and your other posts (including the one I'm replying to right now) imply it pretty strongly as well. So you don't think the IS / Hybrid technology is a failure? Please clarify - you're giving some mixed signals here, I'm interested in talking about the stove and tech and being straightforward about what we observe and what our opinions are. Yes I am seriously comparing my hybrid stove to a non-cat stove... I realize the OP wanted to keep the discussion strictly hybrid but part of that conversation has already involved other techs in the conversation, and I'm very happy with how it's compared to other stoves I've observed, honestly.
b) Ok.. what are they making it out to be ? I can pack my stove full of softwood and have a good bed of coals 18 hours later and a warm house in our mild pacific northwest winter, so for me yeah it worked well. I'm just reporting the facts and I don't see anybody else that is not reporting facts - if someone is making stuff up maybe you can point it out ? Here's a pic of mine after 18 hours (plus a bit actually).. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...at-when-im-at-work.136547/page-2#post-1898207 post #41. For sure, in cold weather you'd probably be doing 12 hour shifts with good wood packed in to keep warm, and yeah I think that's pretty solid !
"This is not a hybrid, this is a failure."
Your words Highbeam - not much else to say here.
If I recall more than once it has been stated that a BK when pushed is showing smoke out the stack. Is that correct?
Yes, in my experience. Not heavy but blue. No smoke with the same fuel in a noncat.
This debate is getting pretty semantical... I did read your post and it was an all encompassing statement towards hybrids "What is available today..." which includes this stove and needles to say it's a mainstay in any hybrid discussion.
I certainly thinks there's big improvements to be made for hybrid stoves, but by no standard do I think where we are at now is a failure... I'd see a failure as something that actually reduces or produces sub-par performance/particulate emissions and from my experience and what I've read of others this isn't the case. The 'perfect-hybrid' would combine secondary with some sort of thermostatic turndown control, so we'd have perfectly clean high-fires and perhaps even better than BKs get on the low burn. Not there yet, but I see this instance as a great step in the right direction, while other hybrids look like they've had more 'meh' results.
I just went to the Woodstock site again and unlike the bk spec you quoted, the 10-14 hour spec for the IS is not a winter burn spec. They are vague.
Yes, most stove specs are vague. I'm going by Rambler's current experience with the stove. I don't think Woodstock is being coy. I think they are posting real world specs. There are plenty of reports of much longer burn times with Woodstock's hybrid stoves in our mild temperatures but they are less normal in New England. Often they go from winter to summer with a very short springtime. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of data on Woodstock stoves in our eternal shoulder seasons. They are too expensive to ship out here. So much is speculation if comparing, but again that is not what this thread is supposed to be about.
Op stated Cleary in his opening post that he wished to discuss only Hybrid Stoves. But in the last paragraph of the same post he asked four specific questions, three of wich were about cat stoves so...
The lopi cape cod did really well too.
Why are people so sensitive to the word failure? Did you grow up in one of those places where all kids got trophies? My bk fails to provide a great fireshow 90% of the time, but it is not a failure.
I agree that the IS is actually a very good stove and a huge step in the right direction. They just failed to nail the whole hybrid concept this time around.
Will any stove get it perfect on all points? I strongly doubt it. Woodstock is making good progress and is nimble enough to keep pushing the envelope. I doubt I will ever own one due to the shipping cost but I respect what their engineers are doing.
Hmm.. OK... You and Idaho seem to be taking this really hard. Not agreeing with you and stating facts is just that.. part of the debate, that's not taking it personal. No need for those kind of comments.
Fair enough. Where I'm coming from is a place with a nine month burn season with mostly mild temperatures and 100% wood heat. Long, low, and slow is unusually important to me. I also appreciate high output when we are down to single digits and no visible smoke since nobody likes smoke.
I expect and demand a woodstove to offer the full range of outputs. It can look bad and be expensive but needs to perform. The hybrid concept is what this thread is about. The hybrid concept, if executed well, will provide the low end at least as good as a cat stove and the top end like a noncat with no smoke throughout. Anything less is a failure because we already have noncats for clean and hot, we already have cats that do clean and low/medium.
Doesn't everybody want the full range of outputs? Everybody has a shoulder season and everybody has really cold times. Why settle for less?
They hybrid concept seems to be the right idea. The combination of technology that is not a compromise but a combination to get the best of both technologies.
Our long shoulder seasons are unusual. This is not typical in New England where Woodstock makes stoves. It seems like they are making good stoves tuned to their climate conditions of short shoulder seasons and long, cold winters.
I'm from the same region as you and I agree ! I've stated in this thread earlier that BK would have been my #1 choice - but I needed a rear vent so the IS Hybrid was the next best thing available with that configuration - plus the price was nice, even with the hefty shipping charge. I'm really thrilled with the stove and it definitely has good turn-down... just not BK-esque turndown. The only thing slowing the development from getting there eventually is cost/reliability. I see where you're coming from I'm coming to the same place just from the other side.. glass half-full/half-empty. Time for beer, it's getting hot here...
So then why not just run a noncat? If you're not interested in longer burns then a cat adds significantly more complexity, cost, and maintenance. I have both, I know. Brobart would probably agree.
I understand why you are all very skeptical of the hybrid setup, but you are majorly discrediting this stove.
Seriously, sometimes you need to accept the fact that something might perform better than what you think it should do in your head.
There is one person who I know of with a very well insulated 1800 sqft house in Vermont who runs the Ideal Steel on 20-24 hr cycles everyday.
Obviously, this will not work for everybody as MOST people are trying to heat their drafty old farmhouses and ranchers with little or no insulation and need a higher output.
The Ideal Steel on a high burn will make the cat hide under the sofa in a cat only stove . For some people, that right there is a good enough reason to own a hybrid.
When I am away 12 hours and my 2x4 walls let all the cold wind come in the house, I need a stove that gives me max btu ' s to bring my house back up to my desired comfort level. Those secondaries during a high burn work very quick.
Seriously, sometimes you need to accept the fact that something might perform better than what you think it should do in your head.
There is one person who I know of with a very well insulated 1800 sqft house in Vermont who runs the Ideal Steel on 20-24 hr cycles everyday.
Obviously, this will not work for everybody as MOST people are trying to heat their drafty old farmhouses and ranchers with little or no insulation and need a higher output.
The Ideal Steel on a high burn will make the cat hide under the sofa in a cat only stove . For some people, that right there is a good enough reason to own a hybrid.
When I am away 12 hours and my 2x4 walls let all the cold wind come in the house, I need a stove that gives me max btu ' s to bring my house back up to my desired comfort level. Those secondaries during a high burn work very quick.
Last edited:
"The IDEAL STEEL Hybrid has a record 82% EPA tested efficiency and average emissions of 1.04 gm/hr. It will easily burn 12-14 hours, and will heat large areas comfortably. It’s high efficiency means that it will produce up to 131,000 more BTUs per day than a standard non-catalytic stove. "
See that word EASILY there. It's EPA BTU rating is 60,530.
See that word EASILY there. It's EPA BTU rating is 60,530.
BKVP
Minister of Fire
This post is not being very constructive from my point of view. All wood stoves, cat and non cat alike, will burn wood, some more efficiently than others, some with more flames than others, some have glass that stays cleaner than others, and heck even a few burn longer than others on the same amount of fuel and chimney length.
When we all start making comparisons, such as stove top temps, it makes no sense at all. First, are we all measuring in the precise same spot? (No) Do we all have the optimal chimney/draft needed to produce that peak performance? (No) Burn time comparisons vary just as greatly as do the levels of density in the fuel, moisture content, altititude effects on draft etc....................... Just as an example, yes, on King and Princess models the glass tends to get dirty on low burns. But some guy in cold contry has a 25' stack and his glass stays clean. So, I hope readers/shoppers always remember that each of us speaks from our ISOLATED experience. In the case of a few of us, we burn them ALL. When Webby comments, he works in a retail environment with dozens of models and vast experience. But even his vast experience is limited to the store his customers and his home use and those chimneys and his fuel and his homes' comfort level.
Highbean says he sees some smoke coming out of his stack on high burn....sorry but that is not the case for 90% or more of the product owners. So does that make his observation less important, no! But it his exprience and he can share that if doing so meets the standard or purpose as I understand stand it of Hearth.com
Hearth.com should and always has been about helping folks with identifying stoves that can get the job done. It also is about helping folks find a solution when their particular installation has performance issues.
Sorry, to ramble, but you all need a Tui and end this post.
When we all start making comparisons, such as stove top temps, it makes no sense at all. First, are we all measuring in the precise same spot? (No) Do we all have the optimal chimney/draft needed to produce that peak performance? (No) Burn time comparisons vary just as greatly as do the levels of density in the fuel, moisture content, altititude effects on draft etc....................... Just as an example, yes, on King and Princess models the glass tends to get dirty on low burns. But some guy in cold contry has a 25' stack and his glass stays clean. So, I hope readers/shoppers always remember that each of us speaks from our ISOLATED experience. In the case of a few of us, we burn them ALL. When Webby comments, he works in a retail environment with dozens of models and vast experience. But even his vast experience is limited to the store his customers and his home use and those chimneys and his fuel and his homes' comfort level.
Highbean says he sees some smoke coming out of his stack on high burn....sorry but that is not the case for 90% or more of the product owners. So does that make his observation less important, no! But it his exprience and he can share that if doing so meets the standard or purpose as I understand stand it of Hearth.com
Hearth.com should and always has been about helping folks with identifying stoves that can get the job done. It also is about helping folks find a solution when their particular installation has performance issues.
Sorry, to ramble, but you all need a Tui and end this post.
brad wilton
Feeling the Heat
it's getting personal there only stoves guys. each one has it's merits and it's down sides if there was a perfect stove woudn't we all have it?
It is easy to take offense. I mean none to your product BKVP. Both are great stoves. Everybody thinks what they have is best. I just wanted to discuss hybrids not end the discussion with unless it's a Blaze King it's a failure .
![[Hearth.com] Hybrid. Theory and discussion. Not comparison](/talk/data/attachments/154/154193-4c8df3da56a329ccc1f11d2d4165ff1d.jpg?hash=jsj_qCmjjM)
Ray Charles could have seen this coming!
I'm not sure if your looking for reassurance that you made the right decision or an argument that you can win but these mine vs yours threads do seem to follow you around.
All of the juice has been squeezed out of this orange.
- Status
Similar threads
