Ashful
Minister of Fire
Not to sound too ignorant, but what are heat strips? Never come across such a thing around here.
HVAC compressor frying contactors
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EbS-P
Minister of Fire
Resistive heaters. It’s the backup heat for an all electric house and they come on during defrost cycle to keep from blowing fridges air into the house.
As a related info point here is the American Standard reference guide it’s not quick at 200+ pages.
Maybe the 200 amps is enough, but my 20-space/40-circuit panel is TOTALLY full. So if I'm gonna replace the panel, might as well use a 225-amp one (my stuff is all Siemens, and 225 is the biggest single-phase one they have, I beieve). Since the house was built, I've done all this: switched from propane water heater to TWO electric ones, added a shipping container workshop with its own little subpanel, added a 40amp EV charger, added a generator inlet, add a minisplit.
POCO says my transformer and wiring is good for 225 amps, but AHJ wondered if you can get a 225 amp meter socket. But elsewhere I've read that it's ok to use a 200-amp meter socket with 225-amp panel, because the max rating of most 200-amp meter sockets is 250 amp, and you don't have to consider the meter socket as continuous. So I need to clarify that.
I'm a little intimidated by meter swap, but also pretty confident I can pull it off. I'll just be extra slow and careful, so I imagine I'll take a few days, and the wife will not be happy. But that's ok
I REALLY hate propane. Would love to put it in the rearview. It's expensive and the companies are kinda sleazy with the pricing.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
I’ve watched my peak loads. Biggest draw that could ever happen would be heat strips( 40 real amp’s) compressor another 20 and my steam generator another 35 add 40 for a car charger because you forgot and 20 more for base load of the house. Total 155 amp.
Unless you really try I don’t see how your real usage could ever exceed that. And of course you could do the code load calc. And again I just don’t see how it would say you needed more than 200 amps.
Don’t do propane.
I switched from 2 40 gallon heaters to one heatpump 80. With all my kids that will pay off in no time.
Check your Siemens panel that all slots can use space saver. (Only half of mine can). With the use of led lights I will be pigtailing in the panel to combine some rooms that were on separate breakers to a single to free up space. They sell space saver 240v breakers. I’ve got one of those to install.
A thoughtful person can do a lot before you need to replace a panel. And my rule is if pull a breaker out it gets replaced to afci or afci/gfci code. That gets pricey in a hurry.
They can. Because it's 20-space/40-circuit. And in fact every slot IS a space-saver.
At the vacation house, it's 40/40 (also Siemens). I'm not sure why. If the busbars can handle the current allowed by the main breaker, what difference does it make how many breakers there are ? But some bozo DID put in one space-saver (in order to add a circuit); I suppose I should fix it. Not the worst thing I've seen there though. Two wires under one screw (no, not one of those cool backwire outlets).
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Why not just install a second panel, tagged off the first? Might make future segregation for a generator easier, as well.
I just installed our seventh panel this summer. Five in the house, one in the barn, one at the pool. With the exception of the pool (tagged off panel "C" at 50A, all others are tagged off mains panel. Pretty easy to run some NM-B 2/3 to a 100A breaker, and set a second panel two feet over from the existing.
I just installed our seventh panel this summer. Five in the house, one in the barn, one at the pool. With the exception of the pool (tagged off panel "C" at 50A, all others are tagged off mains panel. Pretty easy to run some NM-B 2/3 to a 100A breaker, and set a second panel two feet over from the existing.
Ah so you're really after more breaker spaces, not capacity. Why is your 200A main panel only 20 spaces anyway? But nevermind, do what Ashful said. There's no limit on how many subpanels you can install. Don't swap the meter or main panel, that's totally unnecessary. Around here poco will shut off your power and cancel your account if they catch you messing with the meter.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
If you do this, I have a few recommendations from living in houses with multiple panels. As noted, the present place has 7 breaker panels, my last house had 3, and the house I grew up in had 4 or 5.
First, label the panels with a big marker, "Panel A", "Panel B", etc. Don't use numbers, as breakers use numbers. Referring to these breakers later as "B12" or "A23" will be very useful when you're working on outside on patio lighting and asking your wife or a kid to turn off or on a breaker for you in the basement.
Second, make yourself a spreadsheet in Excel or similar, and enter all of the crap you'd normally try (but fail) to write in the too-small spaces in the door of the panel. Then format it to the same size, print it, and paste it over the hand-written portion of the label on the door. Don't cover the other info on breaker types etc., just the hand-written area.
When I'm aiming to do any work in the house, 9 times out of 10 I find it quicker to run to my office, open that spreadsheet, and find the affected circuit(s) than reading thru the labels on the door. Ctrl-F is a wonderful key combination. Also, whenever I rearrange, as I just did for upgrading "Panel C" and installing "Panel G", it's a simple matter of re-printing and pasting over the old label, rather than crossing out and using whiteout to re-label your panel door.
First, label the panels with a big marker, "Panel A", "Panel B", etc. Don't use numbers, as breakers use numbers. Referring to these breakers later as "B12" or "A23" will be very useful when you're working on outside on patio lighting and asking your wife or a kid to turn off or on a breaker for you in the basement.
Second, make yourself a spreadsheet in Excel or similar, and enter all of the crap you'd normally try (but fail) to write in the too-small spaces in the door of the panel. Then format it to the same size, print it, and paste it over the hand-written portion of the label on the door. Don't cover the other info on breaker types etc., just the hand-written area.
When I'm aiming to do any work in the house, 9 times out of 10 I find it quicker to run to my office, open that spreadsheet, and find the affected circuit(s) than reading thru the labels on the door. Ctrl-F is a wonderful key combination. Also, whenever I rearrange, as I just did for upgrading "Panel C" and installing "Panel G", it's a simple matter of re-printing and pasting over the old label, rather than crossing out and using whiteout to re-label your panel door.
As an engineer who believes "the product of engineering is documentation", I've been doing what you describe for years.
It's scandalous, to me, the way that virtually every house I've seen has the breakers labeled. Scrawled in pencil, handwriting barely legible, faded from time, and with incomplete information. Hard to believe NEC and AHJ allow this.
i like what you said rusty about labeling a panel but on the other end it's hard to convince the home owner that i would charge 2 hours to label their panel, even though it would save them a lot of head ache when the time comes. i have been in some older guys homes that each fuse or circuit breaker is put into a small booklet like a 8x8 or 10x10 manilla booklet that schools use that shows each breaker and what is on with that breaker or fuse
Ashful
Minister of Fire
One of the big projects early in the ownership of each of the three homes in which I've spent most of my adult life, has been the tracing of each circuit and labeling of the panel. I remember running around this house 10 years ago, trying to figure out the association between each light, receptacle, or appliance and the various breakers. You can easily burn up most of a weekend doing this, even with the right tools, if you're really attempting to make a complete listing post-construction. One of those, "the last 10% takes 90% of the time" jobs.
I've been in the current house 12 years, and even this summer found one or two circuit associations that I had never previously found/recorded. One of those was the ceiling fan in the gazebo, and now that I think about it, we have two more ceiling fans on our wrap-around porch that I've never traced.
Side note, if you're ever wiring up a covered porch, install ceiling box fans. Very few people think of this, but you will thank yourself every time you use them on a summer evening. Now that we work from home, my wife sits out there to do her work on nice days, so I can use our office for video calls.
I've been in the current house 12 years, and even this summer found one or two circuit associations that I had never previously found/recorded. One of those was the ceiling fan in the gazebo, and now that I think about it, we have two more ceiling fans on our wrap-around porch that I've never traced.
Side note, if you're ever wiring up a covered porch, install ceiling box fans. Very few people think of this, but you will thank yourself every time you use them on a summer evening. Now that we work from home, my wife sits out there to do her work on nice days, so I can use our office for video calls.
and its a code if the box is more than 3 feet away from a wall it has to be a fan box and it has to mount to structure
And yet, a fan does not require fan box if it is secured directly to structure. But if you are not installing a fan then you have to use a fan box.
So you still need a box, right ? But it needn't be a fan box, if the bolts for the fan mounting bracket go through the box into structure ?
Yes you need a box. And you're exactly right. Basically they want every ceiling outlet location to be able to support a fan if an idiot comes along and installs one. Note that in 2020 NEC you can use a regular box if it "provides access to structural framing." But the little 3 tab old-work boxes are not allowed unless the location is not suitable for a fan (e.g. within 3 feet of a wall).
every fan that i have put up says to install a fan box in different words. i've put up fans that are questionable they are so heavy. some of the old hunter fans if you use a box it would have to be a pancake box because they are mounted via a hook and getting a wire to them is tough
you have to use a box because of a different code stating that all splices and terminals have to be in a box. i have a fan in my kitchen that is mounted to a regular light box which is a screw that is a 8/32 fan boxes are 10 /24 screws and the heads of the 10/24 screws are mounted so the heads of the screw is above the box. my fan in my kitchen is a small light weight fan and is still slipped down a few threads. (didn't change it because i'm allergic to bee stings and if stung have to go to the ER) but it will get done.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
All good info, but... you have bees in your kitchen ceiling?
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