How would you advise this guy........

[willworkforwood]

....He does not have his own wood supply and although he could augment his yearly consumption with a few face cords off his property, most of the fuel would have to be purchased. So basically he is looking at either buying wood or buying pellets. .......My concern, and his, is that given his age, handling cordwood may get to be a problem in 10 years or so. On the other hand, he does not like the added complexity of the pellet boiler and being tied to a fuel he can't produce himself.

Guess I'm not completely understanding this - does it mean he's planning to normally buy wood, but wants to have the fall-back of getting it on his own if necessary? Seems like the only way those 2 statements make any sense. And I'm also the fly in the ointment in saying that the Garn (or any other expensive boiler) doesn't work financially, IMO. Assuming 20-25K for the complete install of a Garn big enough to heat his load, and also adding in the cost of C/S/D firewood; it seems like (too) many years before that goes into the black. Different story if he WANTS to burn bio, and it doesn't matter to him that the finances aren't going to work in his favor (is that the case here?). In saying this, I'm assuming it would be just a few thousand $$ to buy another of whatever just went kaput, and continue asis. If that's not the case, I'll stand corrected. Now regarding his age, outside of the financial aspects, here's my take on that. When I bought my boiler 4 years ago, I was 59. At 63, I continue to cut wood - as often and as much as I want to - 2 years ahead and gaining all the time. This will, of course, one day come to an end. But I have a plan for that too. When I finally kick off, my wife is going to put me up on one of the stacks, Sioux warrior-style. I've calculated that after a year drying in the sun and wind, my residual value will be 97 btus. So the whole age thing is nothing but a win-win

 

[skfire]

HM, In 9 months I am that guy. As appealing as the Garn is to me now that I'm more boiler savy, the ability to upgrade to a Froling or the next best lambda thing in a few years really appeals to me. But you're a Garn guy so that's not what you asked. But my response as a healthy 59 YO, is my wife and I both love running our boiler and due to my work demands I can't process all of what we use. But even buying 50% of our usage, and I mean having it split, delivered, and stacked where I want it, I'm WAY ahead financially vs what is now our backup. I split when I want and can, and bring home a bunch of pallets from the shop every year. I'd much rather carry a couple of spits vs dealing with bags of anything. I find carrying bags of corn around for the deer a pain! Keeping my eyes open for the next generation nuclear, self-igniting, wood gasser that will plug and play where my BioMass is now..... Maybe in 5 years.... just because I find this stuff so fun (or maybe a Garn). Tell him heck yeah.

I dont know about nuclear..but self igniting and fully automated is out in Europe:
(broken link removed)
and video

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scott

 

[Tennman]

Huh.... you know you're getting old when boilers start to look sexy........ but red would really look good next to my splitter and Ranger in the mancave. I'm good..... for a while.

 

[leaddog]

Guess I'm not completely understanding this - does it mean he's planning to normally buy wood, but wants to have the fall-back of getting it on his own if necessary? Seems like the only way those 2 statements make any sense. And I'm also the fly in the ointment in saying that the Garn (or any other expensive boiler) doesn't work financially, IMO. Assuming 20-25K for the complete install of a Garn big enough to heat his load, and also adding in the cost of C/S/D firewood; it seems like (too) many years before that goes into the black. Different story if he WANTS to burn bio, and it doesn't matter to him that the finances aren't going to work in his favor (is that the case here?). In saying this, I'm assuming it would be just a few thousand $$ to buy another of whatever just went kaput, and continue asis. If that's not the case, I'll stand corrected. Now regarding his age, outside of the financial aspects, here's my take on that. When I bought my boiler 4 years ago, I was 59. At 63, I continue to cut wood - as often and as much as I want to - 2 years ahead and gaining all the time. This will, of course, one day come to an end. But I have a plan for that too. When I finally kick off, my wife is going to put me up on one of the stacks, Sioux warrior-style. I've calculated that after a year drying in the sun and wind, my residual value will be 97 btus. So the whole age thing is nothing but a win-win

Here in Michigan you can buy wood for $125 a CORD cut split and delivered all day long. Last year I got 17 cord delivered 8in and under of oak for 1500 bucks. I did split it for my boiler but cord wood is cheap here and it looks like it will be for the forseeable future. Now propane is HIGH, pellets are not bad but are tied to fossel fuel, corn is higher than pellets, cherry pits are alittle cheaper than pellets and oil forget it.
In this case with the room, aready set up for low temp transfer, the garn is the way to go in my opinion.
But if this year is any indication of things to come he won't need any heat except maybe a couple days in mid Jan. The highest temp ever in March here was 82* and we have broken that 5 times this year already with the high of 87*
leaddog

 

[willworkforwood]

Here in Michigan you can buy wood for $125 a CORD cut split and delivered all day long. Last year I got 17 cord delivered 8in and under of oak for 1500 bucks. ....

Wow, that's a good price! I don't buy wood, but here in MA I think all $125 gets you is hardwood logs, and C/S/D would would probably be around $250. I agree with you that firewood at that price would certainly tip the scale toward a GARN.

 

[heaterman]

Here in Michigan you can buy wood for $125 a CORD cut split and delivered all day long. Last year I got 17 cord delivered 8in and under of oak for 1500 bucks. I did split it for my boiler but cord wood is cheap here and it looks like it will be for the forseeable future. Now propane is HIGH, pellets are not bad but are tied to fossel fuel, corn is higher than pellets, cherry pits are alittle cheaper than pellets and oil forget it.
In this case with the room, aready set up for low temp transfer, the garn is the way to go in my opinion.
But if this year is any indication of things to come he won't need any heat except maybe a couple days in mid Jan. The highest temp ever in March here was 82* and we have broken that 5 times this year already with the high of 87*
leaddog

It's even less expensive up here. I did some checking for the guy and found a company that will deliver 10 face cord loads for $550. That's cut to your specified length and everything larger than 6" diameter is split.

 

[Donl]

It's even less expensive up here. I did some checking for the guy and found a company that will deliver 10 face cord loads for $550. That's cut to your specified length and everything larger than 6" diameter is split.

That's $165 a cord which is more than $125 a cord that Leaddog can get it for. Still a good price though.

 

[heaterman]

That's $165 a cord which is more than $125 a cord that Leaddog can get it for. Still a good price though.

Hmmmmm....... Maybe my math is whacked. I figured it like this......a full cord or pulp cord is 4'x4'x8' if you ordered your wood in 2' lengths you would get 2 face cord out of 1 full cord. That means the supplier would be bringing you 5 full cords for $550 or $110 per cord. No?

 

[Gasifier]

Hmmmmm....... Maybe my math is whacked. I figured it like this......a full cord or pulp cord is 4'x4'x8' if you ordered your wood in 2' lengths you would get 2 face cord out of 1 full cord. That means the supplier would be bringing you 5 full cords for $550 or $110 per cord. No?

16" is typical face cord length. Three of those face cord in a full cord (48" depth). $550 for 10 face cord. That equals $55 a face cord. $55 x 3 = $165/full cord. Or a good deal.

 

[Clearview]

Sounds right to me!

 

[Donl]

Hmmmmm....... Maybe my math is whacked. I figured it like this......a full cord or pulp cord is 4'x4'x8' if you ordered your wood in 2' lengths you would get 2 face cord out of 1 full cord. That means the supplier would be bringing you 5 full cords for $550 or $110 per cord. No?

OK, That's 10 half cords for $550, not 10 face cords. That is a good price!

 

[heaterman]

OK, That's 10 half cords for $550, not 10 face cords. That is a good price!

Yep. I'll buy that definition. "Face cord" is an arbitrary term.

 

[Gasifier]

Heaterman, First you said this.

It's even less expensive up here. I did some checking for the guy and found a company that will deliver 10 face cord loads for $550. That's cut to your specified length and everything larger than 6" diameter is split.

(If they cut it to your specified length, can you specify you want it to be 36" long and get a sh!tload more wood?)

Then you said this.

hmmmmm....... Maybe my math is whacked. I figured it like this......a full cord or pulp cord is 4'x4'x8' if you ordered your wood in 2' lengths you would get 2 face cord out of 1 full cord. That means the supplier would be bringing you 5 full cords for $550 or $110 per cord. No?

Now Marriam Webster dictionary says this: Definition of FACE CORD: a unit of wood cut for fuel equal to a stack 4 × 8 feet with lengths of pieces from about 12 to 16 inches.

I am just curious as to how much the wood will cost the guy you are advising? If you are talking about face cord in your first description above, 10 face cord for $550, then he will get a certain price per full cord. ($165 a full cord)

If you are talking about what you said in your first description, 2' lengths you will get 2 face cord out of 1 full cord, then he will get a certain price for that full cord. ($110 a full cord)

That is a big difference in price. Not argueing with you here. Just curious if you know what the supplier is considering a face cord, or full cord, for that matter. You first said 10 face cord for $550. Then you said the supplier will be bringing you 5 full cord for $550 or $110 per cord.

Not trying to be a p.i.a., or argue what a face cord is. Just trying to get the correct price that the gentlemen is going to be getting the wood for.?

I am lost. Sorry.

 

[heaterman]

Heaterman, First you said this.

It's even less expensive up here. I did some checking for the guy and found a company that will deliver 10 face cord loads for $550. That's cut to your specified length and everything larger than 6" diameter is split.

(If they cut it to your specified length, can you specify you want it to be 36" long and get a sh!tload more wood?)

Then you said this.

hmmmmm....... Maybe my math is whacked. I figured it like this......a full cord or pulp cord is 4'x4'x8' if you ordered your wood in 2' lengths you would get 2 face cord out of 1 full cord. That means the supplier would be bringing you 5 full cords for $550 or $110 per cord. No?

Now Marriam Webster dictionary says this: Definition of FACE CORD: a unit of wood cut for fuel equal to a stack 4 × 8 feet with lengths of pieces from about 12 to 16 inches.

I am just curious as to how much the wood will cost the guy you are advising? If you are talking about face cord in your first description above, 10 face cord for $550, then he will get a certain price per full cord. ($165 a full cord)

If you are talking about what you said in your first description, 2' lengths you will get 2 face cord out of 1 full cord, then he will get a certain price for that full cord. ($110 a full cord)

That is a big difference in price. Not argueing with you here. Just curious if you know what the supplier is considering a face cord, or full cord, for that matter. You first said 10 face cord for $550. Then you said the supplier will be bringing you 5 full cord for $550 or $110 per cord.

Not trying to be a p.i.a., or argue what a face cord is. Just trying to get the correct price that the gentlemen is going to be getting the wood for.?

I am lost. Sorry.

I actually called the guy and he said they will deliver 10 face cord cut to any length you request up to 24" . That's as long as he can get out of his processor. So from that I would assume that a face cord to him means 4' x 24" x 8'.

Face cord is as much a geographic thing as it is something in Websters...........maybe we should try the "Urban Dictionary"

 

[Gasifier]

24" That is a great price! Where I am from you generally get anywhere between 12-16" depth or length in a face cord. If this guy will deliver 24" length he is selling twice the wood, or close to it, for the same price. Even if your stove needs shorter wood you could order it 24" and cut it in half! That is a great price. $110 for a full cord cut, split and delivered. So buying wood by the usual face cord length around here. That is $36 a face cord cut, split, and delivered. Great price! I would buy good hardwood cord wood at that price all day long. And say the heck with c/s/s my own.

 

[Jim K in PA]

I am late to the party in this discussion, but I had one other thought for your client Steve. The residual value of the whatever equipment he installs now should be added to his equation. A 10 year old GARN probably has at least another 20 years of life left in it, perhaps much more. That unit probably could be sold for a substantial portion of his initial investment, and that equity put toward his choice of replacement. Just a thought.

 

[jpgarnva]

I am late to the party in this discussion, but I had one other thought for your client Steve. The residual value of the whatever equipment he installs now should be added to his equation. A 10 year old GARN probably has at least another 20 years of life left in it, perhaps much more. That unit probably could be sold for a substantial portion of his initial investment, and that equity put toward his choice of replacement. Just a thought.

I agree with Jim on the "return" of the return on investment. Not only that, when your time is up it doesn't matter how old or young you are. Tell him to do whatever he feels the best with. As for me and my clan, we had to kick the propane addiction or starve. Garn for us. Three kids...only a matter of time before my c/s/s is T/M/J!

 

[SmokeEater]

This will, of course, one day come to an end. But I have a plan for that too. When I finally kick off, my wife is going to put me up on one of the stacks, Sioux warrior-style. I've calculated that after a year drying in the sun and wind, my residual value will be 97 btus. So the whole age thing is nothing but a win-win

I'm older than you willworkforwood and when I tore out my old coal-oil-stickwood hot air system and put in a $$ pellet boiler oil backup radiant radiators undercounter and fan-forced suspended hot water heater my thoughts were similar to yours. I still cut wood, but now will sell it to local gasser owners to get cash to buy pellets (until I can't do it anymore and maybe need the Sioux stack). But here in NNY a cord is 80 cubic feet of wood piled tightly. Or a cord is 4' x 4' x 8', a face cord is 1/3 of a full cord. When I sell my gasser wood, it will be a good price, say $60 for a third of a cord or a "face" cord (here in NNY), or $180 for a full cord of 20% MC split beech, hard maple, and yellow birch. This area is a very large wooded area, most people think of NY city when thinking of New York, but the Adirondacks and surrounding area are larger than many states and a major industry here is logging, pulp, high grade to low grade, wood chips, pellet manufacturers, private and public landowners that maintain and harvest some of the very best hardwoods and softwoods for every possible purpose in all the globe. These guys know wood. I'm also going to supply 24" or any custom cut length to gasser owners, but will charge according to the fractional relationship to the 80 cubic foot cord. So a "face" cord of 24" 20% MC beech split and ready to be picked up will sell for about $90.

 

[Hankovitch]

Hello all. If a cord of wood is 4' x 4' x 8'...doesn't the math work out so that this 128 cubic feet?.......Regarding cost of fuel for a Garn, I bring our horse trailer to one of the local businesses where they cut apart and rebulid wooden pallets. They make a 'box' from a 42x48 pallet, box being very close to 4x4x4, and fill it with wood not suitable for remanufacture of pallets. I have them load three of these 'boxes' into my trailer using their forklift, I shut the door, and give them $15.00 (that's right, $15.00 total... doing the math it's about $11.00 per cord). I haul it home and take each box off the trailer with our Bobcat. We do have to cut the pieces in half with a chop saw and re-stack the halves in another box....so you have to add in the time to cut those sticks in half....couple hours for the 3 boxes. Still pretty cheap.
It took a while for us to find the solution (found in this Forum, thank you all very much) to not just minimizing but eliminating the HUFFING when burning such dry fuel. We find that if we stack this (VERY dry...kiln-dried) wood as tightly spaced as possible when we load the Garn, and have the load positioned quite close to the back of the burn chamber we get very little smoke except at the first of the burn, and absolutely no 'huffing'.

Hankovitch in S.W. Wisconsin

 

[SmokeEater]

Hello all. If a cord of wood is 4' x 4' x 8'...doesn't the math work out so that this 128 cubic feet?.......Regarding cost of fuel for a Garn, I bring our horse trailer to one of the local businesses where they cut apart and rebulid wooden pallets. They make a 'box' from a 42x48 pallet, box being very close to 4x4x4, and fill it with wood not suitable for remanufacture of pallets. I have them load three of these 'boxes' into my trailer using their forklift, I shut the door, and give them $15.00 (that's right, $15.00 total... doing the math it's about $11.00 per cord). I haul it home and take each box off the trailer with our Bobcat. We do have to cut the pieces in half with a chop saw and re-stack the halves in another box....so you have to add in the time to cut those sticks in half....couple hours for the 3 boxes. Still pretty cheap.
It took a while for us to find the solution (found in this Forum, thank you all very much) to not just minimizing but eliminating the HUFFING when burning such dry fuel. We find that if we stack this (VERY dry...kiln-dried) wood as tightly spaced as possible when we load the Garn, and have the load positioned quite close to the back of the burn chamber we get very little smoke except at the first of the burn, and absolutely no 'huffing'.

Hankovitch in S.W. Wisconsin

Hankovitch Sorry about the 80 cu ft. I didn't specify that number. True that 4' x 4' x 8' will give you 128 cu. ft., but we have to take the "air spaces" into consideration. Trials have shown that the average air space in a carefully piled cord of wood will be 48 cu. ft. I meant to indicate that the 80 cu. ft. is the amount of solid wood in a cord. If it were seasoned oak a solid cu. ft. of that would be about 47 lbs. If it were 20% MC, then the bone dry cu. ft. would be 37.6 lb/cu.ft. x 80 cu. ft. would be 3008 lbs. of bone dry oak in 1 cord and times 8000 btu/lb for energy in wood makes the oak cord's energy value equal to 24MMbtu, which is on the numbers.

 

[heaterman]

Jim that's a very good thought. Given normal inflation rates and observations of what a couple used ones have sold for, a 10 year old Garn would probably still bring at least half its original price.

 

[woodsmaster]

Jim that's a very good thought. Given normal inflation rates and observations of what a couple used ones have sold for, a 10 year old Garn would probably still bring at least half its original price.

I'd guess that about any 10 year old gasser would bring half it's price, not gust the garn. Look at the 30 year old tarms on e-bay. I think they want more for them than what they cost new.

 

[Hankovitch]

Hankovitch Sorry about the 80 cu ft. I didn't specify that number. True that 4' x 4' x 8' will give you 128 cu. ft., but we have to take the "air spaces" into consideration. Trials have shown that the average air space in a carefully piled cord of wood will be 48 cu. ft. I meant to indicate that the 80 cu. ft. is the amount of solid wood in a cord. If it were seasoned oak a solid cu. ft. of that would be about 47 lbs. If it were 20% MC, then the bone dry cu. ft. would be 37.6 lb/cu.ft. x 80 cu. ft. would be 3008 lbs. of bone dry oak in 1 cord and times 8000 btu/lb for energy in wood makes the oak cord's energy value equal to 24MMbtu, which is on the numbers.

Thanks for the excellent clarification! Very good informationin your reply.