How low can moisture go?

[Hass]

So I emailed this guy, with a money back guarantee on his firewood and said it's the best around.

Here; (broken link removed to http://buffalo.craigslist.org/grd/2651261481.html)

"Our wood is measured by the Face Cord which is 8' X 4' X 16-18" length. Quick Delivery.

We have a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE that the wood is dry and ready to burn. Ask the low cost guys if they do. Most have cut and split the wood in the last 6 months or less.

We have been selling wood for over 15 years, there is no junk mixed in, all quality hardwood aged 12-15 months and ready to burn. Measured honestly.

5 cord or larger orders will receive a discount.

MIXED HARDWOOD: 100% HARDWOOD consisting of Ash, Beech, Red and White Oak, and Hard Maple only.

$125 per face cord Delivered in Williamsville, Lancaster, Amherst, Clarence or areas of that distance.

$135 per face cord to Downtown Buffalo.

Stacking is possible, cost varies depending on your needs. Usually $10 per face cord.

Wood is moving quickly, please call to get your order."


So me, being the avid hearth reader... Knows that Oak won't be ready to go in 12 months. So I asked him if I can buy 6 FC without oak, but if not I'd just pick out the oak... Because it wouldn't be seasoned and ready to burn and I would refuse the load if the wood is too wet (aside from oak)
So I get this email back...


"I have what u want but I think u are incorrect about the moisture...I have red oak at 10-15% been air-dried 1.5yrs (I too have a moisture meter) and shagbark hickory 12-18% been air dried 1 year . I have found thru experience that if u let the center get as dry as u suggest the ends and outside will be around 5-7% and will produce tremendous heat but not for long...I test the ends and center (without cutting it open) and everyone raves about the wood-can provide references if u desire;never had a complaint yet. If u load her up at 6am and goto work u will have hot coals at 6 pm when u get home esp with the hickory...my price is 100/face if u buy 6 face I will give deal on delivery k"

Shortly after it I got this email..

"Just went outside and split the wood in half with a maul: results - oak in center is 12-15% the hickory 13-17% if this is to ur satisfaction then contact me asap as this WILL NOT last long"

So now, I am quite skeptical of him. But I sent him an email, saying if he's confident it's at 12-15% bring me 6 loads and we'll see. I'm thinking to check a few before he dumps it, then some after he dumps it... Just to make sure he didn't sneak in garbage on the bottom. I pay after the deed is done of course.
What is your take on this guy? Saying that wood gets to 5-7% dry and it's much too dry? Is that even possible? I remember seeing a thread on here where the wood was dried in a heated kiln to 11% or such, then let sit outside and it gained water weight. As you can see if you click the link, his stacks are all very tight together as well so that can't help wood dry faster.

I don't know. I think I'm just being critical... I would have been fine if he didn't say the comment about 5-7% being too dry to burn.

 

[gzecc]

I would tell him that you will pay his premium price if you can also check it (after splitting it) before he dumps it.

 

[rdust]

Driest I've seen in my area for wood stored outside under cover is 14%. This was on elm from my dad that was 20+ years old. IMO the end reading means nothing, if he's getting those readings on a fresh split as he says you should be good to go.

I personally would have a hard time dealing with someone who can't spell you or your. :lol:

 

[Hass]

I would tell him that you will pay his premium price if you can also check it (after splitting it) before he dumps it.

I told him I want to check some splits before he dumps it, then pick some out to check after he dumps it...
In case he puts good wood on top, then junky crap on the bottom to hide it.

Driest I've seen in my area for wood stored outside under cover is 14%. This was on elm from my dad that was 20+ years old. IMO the end reading means nothing, if he's getting those readings on a fresh split as he says you should be good to go.

I personally would have a hard time dealing with someone who can't spell you or your. :lol:

Lol...
I got this back.

"6 cord hickory in 3 8x8 wood drying racks mix of long and shagbark. I also have a 8x12 rack of red oak only- derived numbers from these two racks - I also have apprx 8 cord red/hic mix but wud be best for next season - I heat with wood and understand u want dry wood: most heat least creosote; 100 for red;115 for hickory; 90 for half - season red/hickory mix..."

wood would wud?
If he's willing to bring it, I'm willing to buy it.
Sucks though, $600 for 2 cords of wood... or $700 for a truck load with 7-8 cords...
If I ever find myself out of a job... I think I'm going to buy a dozen truck loads and fill up my yard to reap the profits come heating season

 

[CTYank]

Vendor must know that unit of measure of wood in NY is the CORD, period. It has no "face." DAGS.

Stacking wood for a few weeks in vicinity of stove can get MC down to unmeasurable, with variety of species. That stuff burns great in a little Morso. Lights and settles down to steady burn very quickly.

 

[BrotherBart]

5 to 7% measured on the face of red oak splits stacked for a year or so is reasonable. If they are large splits, re-split and measured inside is a whole nother story. But I burn over 90% red and white oak and a year top covered in sun and wind is fine. Two years is primo. And sun and wind on this place means what sun and wind gets through the 90 foot trees surrounding the house. Eleven o'clock till three o'clock. I for the life of me don't know where this three years drying for oak crap comes from. I take it off the stacks and tight pack it in the shed at two years.

Of course I don't let it sit out in the rain. It is top covered within an hour of splitting.

Heck this seller is a gem. He actually has a moisture meter!

 

[Hass]

Vendor must know that unit of measure of wood in NY is the CORD, period. It has no "face." DAGS.

Stacking wood for a few weeks in vicinity of stove can get MC down to unmeasurable, with variety of species. That stuff burns great in a little Morso. Lights and settles down to steady burn very quickly.

Yeah, it's funny how the state said that... But I've never seen a dealer once say they sell it by a cord (as in a true.. full cord)
They'll call it a cord, but when in reality they mean a face cord.
So I don't even bother calling things a cord when asking people for wood... I just call it a face cord to avoid confusion.

 

[Pagey]

5 to 7% measured on the face of red oak splits stacked for a year or so is reasonable. If they are large splits, re-split and measured inside is a whole nother story. But I burn over 90% red and white oak and a year top covered in sun and wind is fine. Two years is primo. And sun and wind on this place means what sun and wind gets through the 90 foot trees surrounding the house. Eleven o'clock till three o'clock. I for the life of me don't know where this three years drying for oak crap comes from. I take it off the stacks and tight pack it in the shed at two years.

Of course I don't let it sit out in the rain. It is top covered within an hour of splitting.

Heck this seller is a gem. He actually has a moisture meter!

+1, the oak we burn does fine after a year. Sure, like you said, 2 years is just icing on the cake, but unless you a.) live in an extremely damp/humid environment and b.) leave it in HUGE splits...there's nothing wrong with year old oak.

 

[maxed_out]

I'm with Rdust at +- 14%. Best I can do around here covered+aged.

Also if you do a search there is some nice work thats been done on this topic....Battenkillers studies are pretty insightful.

 

[Hass]

Heck this seller is a gem. He actually has a moisture meter!

Well, he's contacting his guy that hauls wood... So we'll see just how much of a gem this guy is soon enough!

I'm with Rdust at +- 14%. Best I can do around here covered+aged.

Also if you do a search there is some nice work thats been done on this topic....Battenkillers studies are pretty insightful.

Battenkiller! thanks.
I knew people called him BK, but i didn't know what his name was.
thanks.

My old shed outside is at 17%, and it's a 70-80 year old shed from 4x4 and 2x6s. My house walls are also 17%.. But the humidity in a house can get high, so I trust the shed moisture the most.

 

[MasterMech]

$300 a cord. Yeouch! But then again $200 a cord delivered is par around here for "seasoned" wood.

 

[krex1010]

I have some pin oak I sPlit last fall and I tested it the other day and it's at 19%. So oak can season in a year as long as it's stacked and the split size isn't large.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

5 to 7% measured on the face of red oak splits stacked for a year or so is reasonable. If they are large splits, re-split and measured inside is a whole nother story. But I burn over 90% red and white oak and a year top covered in sun and wind is fine. Two years is primo. And sun and wind on this place means what sun and wind gets through the 90 foot trees surrounding the house. Eleven o'clock till three o'clock. I for the life of me don't know where this three years drying for oak crap comes from. I take it off the stacks and tight pack it in the shed at two years.

Of course I don't let it sit out in the rain. It is top covered within an hour of splitting.

Heck this seller is a gem. He actually has a moisture meter!

Comes from me as that is what we've found to be the best for oak. That is for good oak and not dead oak. So you can blame me for it BB.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

$300 a cord. Yeouch! But then again $200 a cord delivered is par around here for "seasoned" wood.

Ouch is right! If I could get that price for sure I'd be trying to sell more.

 

[Battenkiller]

5 to 7% measured on the face of red oak splits stacked for a year or so is reasonable. If they are large splits, re-split and measured inside is a whole nother story.

Absolutely. But how? Doesn't that violate all the EMC charts from the lumber industry? Not really.

As everybody knows, the MC of wood is entirely dependent on the relative humidity of the surrounding air. Tables exist to show what to expect in different regions of the country, but the truth is that RH varies by the minute. These variations won't affect the MC of the entire split, but drastic variations in RH can have an almost immediate effect on the very surface of the split.

Water leaves the wood from the exposed surfaces. As the outside dries, a moisture gradient is formed through the thickness of the split, with the wettest portion in the middle. During extremely hot and dry periods (when the relative humidity might get below 25% RH), the very outside of the split can temporarily reach equilibrium with that dry air and have a moisture content as low as 5-6%. This is just a temporary and shallow surface condition, mostly likely less than 1/8" deep (depending on how long the dry spell was). As soon as the RH in the outside air rises to normal levels, the MC of the outside will go up because water is still moving from the inside of the split to the outside surfaces, and because the EMC is now higher because the RH is now higher.

Leave those same splits for long enough in an environment of constant relative humidity and they will be the same MC from the outside all the way to the center. That MC will be at whatever the equilibrium moisture constant in that region is at that time of year... usually about 12-14% MC depending on where you live. If you're supremely anal and want the most accurate reading possible, split away about 1/4" and take a reading on the fresh face. Then split the wood in half and get a reading in the center, add them up, and divide by two to get an average MC for the entire split. That's the only figure your stove really cares about.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

And what was the moisture of our wood that was checked at Woodstock? Wood that was split and stacked in December of 2002.

 

[Kenster]

My thoughts on this guy... He is communicating with you, addressing all of your questions. He is relatively educated in the fine art or wood burning and does not poo-poo your concerns, though he respectfully offers his own thoughts about moisture content. He offers a 'money back guarantee.' How many firewood sellers do that? He offers references. Unheard of! Get some and call them all.
How far away is his lot. For the investment you are about to make I think it would be worth the drive to go see this wood for yourself. Take your hand splitter and your Moisture Meter.
I'm guessing if you get all hickory you'll be in great shape but the oak won't be too far behind.

I don't foresee ever having to buy wood, myself, and most of us here are leery of the wood vendors but this guy, to me, seems on the up and up. I would go for it.
$300 a cord seems steep but if you can burn it this year it's probably worth it. It won't be long before people are paying $300 for wood that was green and standing yesterday.

 

[maple1]

My thoughts on this guy... He is communicating with you, addressing all of your questions. He is relatively educated in the fine art or wood burning and does not poo-poo your concerns, though he respectfully offers his own thoughts about moisture content. He offers a 'money back guarantee.' How many firewood sellers do that? He offers references. Unheard of! Get some and call them all.
How far away is his lot. For the investment you are about to make I think it would be worth the drive to go see this wood for yourself. Take your hand splitter and your Moisture Meter.
I'm guessing if you get all hickory you'll be in great shape but the oak won't be too far behind.

I don't foresee ever having to buy wood, myself, and most of us here are leery of the wood vendors but this guy, to me, seems on the up and up. I would go for it.
$300 a cord seems steep but if you can burn it this year it's probably worth it. It won't be long before people are paying $300 for wood that was green and standing yesterday.

I agree with all of this - especially the part about go check his wood for yourself, if he's obliging of having visitors. So far, sounds like he's addressed your questions responsibly - so I would kind of return the favour by not asking him to bring all the wood to you first before checking it at the risk of turning around & going home with it. This kind of back & forth could establish a worthwhile relationship for the future. So far this is the most responsible sounding vendor I've heard described on here. Price might be on the high end, but the bottom line on that is if buyers don't want to pay top dollar, they should be buying wood a year or two before they need it and put the seasoning aspect in their own hands. Or be prepared to try to burn green wood.

 

[firefighterjake]

My thoughts on this guy... He is communicating with you, addressing all of your questions. He is relatively educated in the fine art or wood burning and does not poo-poo your concerns, though he respectfully offers his own thoughts about moisture content. He offers a 'money back guarantee.' How many firewood sellers do that? He offers references. Unheard of! Get some and call them all.
How far away is his lot. For the investment you are about to make I think it would be worth the drive to go see this wood for yourself. Take your hand splitter and your Moisture Meter.
I'm guessing if you get all hickory you'll be in great shape but the oak won't be too far behind.

I don't foresee ever having to buy wood, myself, and most of us here are leery of the wood vendors but this guy, to me, seems on the up and up. I would go for it.
$300 a cord seems steep but if you can burn it this year it's probably worth it. It won't be long before people are paying $300 for wood that was green and standing yesterday.

My thinking as well . . . I think there are a few folks out there that would not be so patient or accomodating with their customers . . . especially this time of year. He may not be the best speller, but it certainly sounds as though he knows what folks want and need when it comes to wood.

 

[Wood Duck]

I don't know whether it is true that over-dry wood burns less efficiently than wood with higher moisture content, but I have seen that notion posted here several times. It doesn't seem unreasonable or out of the main stream for somebody to have that opinion or repeat it as fact. The guy seems like one of the better educated and more reasonable guys you'll find selling firewood. Of course at $300 per cord he could afford better schoolin' than the guys selling for $75 out in the boonies, so he ought to know what he's talking about.

 

[krex1010]

Wood duck, I have heard that overly dry wood burns very inefficiently and can actually foul your chimney as badly as wet wood. The reason being that the super dry stuff burns so fast that combustion is not nearly as complete as with slightly wetter stuff, so more solids shoot up the chimney and since the fire will easily run away and burn too hot , we are forced to damp the air way down, which leads to greater fouling. I have read this several times from reputable sources. We are talking about wood here with moisture content of less than 10% which is pretty hard to come by when seasoning outdoors, even for several years.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Wood duck, I have heard that overly dry wood burns very inefficiently and can actually foul your chimney as badly as wet wood. The reason being that the super dry stuff burns so fast that combustion is not nearly as complete as with slightly wetter stuff, so more solids shoot up the chimney and since the fire will easily run away and burn too hot , we are forced to damp the air way down, which leads to greater fouling. I have read this several times from reputable sources. We are talking about wood here with moisture content of less than 10% which is pretty hard to come by when seasoning outdoors, even for several years.

And now hear from an unreputable scrource. I am not afraid to burn wood that is 6-7 years in the stack or even longer. With this wood, which some claim is too dry, we have never had a creosote problem in our present stove. In fact, we've cleaned our chimney one time in 4 years burning to get a cup of soot and no creosote. In the 6-7 year old wood, I doubt you could get it any drier unless you could put it out in Arizona or in a kiln. No, I'll continue to burn my dry wood and smile all the time.

Oh yes, about the burning more wood. For sure it is the stove rather than the wood but we now burn only about half the wood we used to, so maybe the part about dry wood being bad only has to do with the older stoves? Food for thought.

 

[Battenkiller]

Wood duck, I have heard that overly dry wood burns very inefficiently and can actually foul your chimney as badly as wet wood. The reason being that the super dry stuff burns so fast that combustion is not nearly as complete as with slightly wetter stuff, so more solids shoot up the chimney and since the fire will easily run away and burn too hot , we are forced to damp the air way down, which leads to greater fouling. I have read this several times from reputable sources. We are talking about wood here with moisture content of less than 10% which is pretty hard to come by when seasoning outdoors, even for several years.

I share that notion, but then I'm one of those idiots who trusts reputable sources.

The peaks of the included chart may possibly shift a bit either to the left or to the right depending upon the characteristics of the individual stove and installation (and numerous other minor factors), but the shape of the curves will still remain the roughly the same with any woodburning appliance.

Of course, I don't personally care one way or the other if folks believe this, or if they try to burn oven-dry stuff or ice cubes, but this phenomenon is pretty well understood throughout the wood heating industry. Wood burns most efficiently when a certain amount of water remains to regulate the burn. What that exact amount is for your particular situation I haven't a clue, but it ain't down at 10% MC or lower, that's for sure.

 

[krex1010]

Backwoods savage, I don't think your 6-7 year old wood is in the too dry category, unless you have it sitting in a kiln for that long. Wood will not likely get that dry when seasoning outside. The too dry wood is more a warning against stuffing a woodstove full of pallet wood or something small that will burn out of control.