Help w/ Long Term Plan

[avc8130]

I'm still kinda thinking on this subject myself. Although I could probably fit another flue in the pipe chase (could you just build a pipe chase too, and make it big enough to cover both flues?), I'd still have to move the oil tank somewhere else in the basement, as well as probably move the BoilerMate and some associated piping. I've been thinking propane - you can put a tank underground and you'd gain additional space for the wood boiler as well as be able to vent out the wall. Propane runs cleaner and doesn't degrade over time like fuel oil could. Around here it's still more expensive than oil though, but not much. With that Tarm, I imagine you could use that BoilerMate which would be better than the coil, esp. in summer.

I've even been thinking Mini Split heat pump/air conditioners too.

I know it sounds crazy, but I really have NO WAY of acceptably adding a flue for my situation. My house is a ranch. Both gable ends are occupied. 1 side has a garage, the other the addition. Both other sides have way too many windows/doors/decks/porches to legally powervent oil. I have a nice masonry chimney with 2 flues coming up the center of my house currently. 1 is for the current oil burner in the basement and the other is for the Jotul in the upstairs. As I have said, I do NOT want to lose the Jotul. I could build a pipe chase, but there are no closets on that side of the house to hide it in. Plus, I really don't want to see a class A chimeny poking up next to my nice, stone fascade chimney.

Adding any type of flue is quite costly. I can't see how this Tarm oil burner could be SO inefficient that it would cost more to operate as a backup for the next ~20 years than the cost of adding a flue.

I have PLENTY of space in my basement for the boilers/storage/oil tanks. I currently have 2 275 gallon oil tanks 20+ feet away from the boiler location. I could easily add thousands of gallons of water storage in the future without worrying about "missing" the space.

Propane costs a fortune around here. Generally it costs a bit more than oil per gallon, but the BTU content is MUCH lower so the cost per BTU is MUCH higher. It is a viable option, as it would be a nice fuel for my cooking stove...but adding the cost of a tank and install starts getting significant...especially for a BACKUP system. I already have all of the support in place for OIL as a backup.

The Boilermate has me really wondering. It would essentially act as "mini storage". I wonder in the summer if I could get away with small, hot fires every couple days until I decide I really want to go "all-in" on storage.

ac

 

[heaterman]

I hear that, I read that, but I find it tough to substantiate in research. Tarm claims 83% efficiency on oil. That is just as good as my current Well-McClain/Beckett oil boiler right now!

The whole idea of this much "planning" is that I don't plan on moving. We are just settling and starting a family. The plan for this house is 20+ years. By then, resale value of my heating system will be the least of my worries! Even still, I logistically have NO WAY to add a 2nd flue for the wood/oil. The layout of the house/grounds just simply won't allow for it anyway that is acceptable to me.

ac

I wouldn't quibble on the 83% claim but try to get that after only a months worth of wood burning and you might as well go troll for tuna in the Sahara desert. Not going to happen.
The issue with combo units is keeping the HX spotless which is nearly impossible to do unless you really enjoy brushing out your boiler every week. I would say a wood/oil combination will see around 60% on the oil side typically.

I would heartily recommend thinking about a detached structure of some kind to house your wood or pellet boiler.

 

[avc8130]

I wouldn't quibble on the 83% claim but try to get that after only a months worth of wood burning and you might as well go troll for tuna in the Sahara desert. Not going to happen.
The issue with combo units is keeping the HX spotless which is nearly impossible to do unless you really enjoy brushing out your boiler every week. I would say a wood/oil combination will see around 60% on the oil side typically.

I would heartily recommend thinking about a detached structure of some kind to house your wood or pellet boiler.

Does that still hold true if the oil burner is in its own, SEPARATE, heat exchanger?

(broken link removed to http://www.woodboilers.com/product-photos.aspx?product=47)

Check that out. The oil burner doesn't just fire in the "wood" chamber like most combo units. It fires into its own chamber just like a "normal" standalone oil burner.

ac

 

[velvetfoot]

Just started searching oil/wood boilers and Benjamin came up first. It talks about separate combustion chambers too, but says nothing about being a gassifier.
(broken link removed to http://mainewoodfurnaces.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/CC500_English.pdf)

 

[hobbyheater]

Just started searching oil/wood boilers and Benjamin came up first. It talks about separate combustion chambers too, but

The "Dutch Oven" concept of completely surrounding the wood firebox with water , this concept just does not work for burning wood safely , in a none gassification boiler.

 

[Tennman]

You're on the research path many of us have traveled here. Since I intended to do the install myself it was a staged plan leaving all that was currently working in place as I debugged our new wood boiler system. I'd say your first decision is the debate that goes on here continuously and as I've stated frequetently BOTH camps are correct; go for maximum efficiency where the IWB is located in the house or go for minimum dust and smell where the IWB is in an outbuilding (note it is an IWB at both locations). I will quote a well known installer who posts here freqently (and politely protect his identity), "In my experience I've found that the customer is more likely to be happy if the wood appliance is located out of the house." I think what he means by "customer" is the guy and momma. There are those of equal passion about feeding their boiler without the need to go outside as there are like myself who would never tolerate the mess/smell that my boiler and I create out in my barn. I actually enjoy walking out to the barn on crisp nites, but I rarely have to plow thru snow. But the whole splitting, storing, burning, occasional smoke escape, ash removal, cleaning processes are away from our home.

I'm so glad I did not do the boiler AND storage at first because as a DIY'er I might as well have been in Outer Mongolia that first year.... this site was my only lifeline to debug the five things that were going on simultaneously.... which made debugging very challenging. If you do the underground RIGHT from jump street, you should be able to install a very good EKO, BioMass, etc without storage in an outbuilding for maybe under 10k and leave what is working right now alone. Probably can't do it at that price if you choose one of the fancier boilers, but in my case I wasn't sure that wood heating was compatible with my lifestyle. From where I am today... much wiser and with a little more money in the bank I'd probably do Garn or one of the boilers with brains. If you're able to search some key words you'll find probably a 100 guys over the past 5 years going down the same decision path you are right now. My only comment is the decision tree is 1) where's it gonna be, 2) which boiler (usually cost/performance driven), 3) storage right away?, 4) then all the nuts and bolts... pumps, mixing valves, air purge, type of lines, etc. Have fun and you've found the best support site.

 

[woodsmaster]

I hear that, I read that, but I find it tough to substantiate in research. Tarm claims 83% efficiency on oil. That is just as good as my current Well-McClain/Beckett oil boiler right now!

The whole idea of this much "planning" is that I don't plan on moving. We are just settling and starting a family. The plan for this house is 20+ years. By then, resale value of my heating system will be the least of my worries! Even still, I logistically have NO WAY to add a 2nd flue for the wood/oil. The layout of the house/grounds just simply won't allow for it anyway that is acceptable to me.

ac

You never Know what the future holds. A new job, Loss of a job, divorce, death, etc. I like the idea of being able to keep or sell the boiler in case of a move. I'm currently In a situation that I may have to sell my boiler. I'm hoping not but hey who Knows. I wish I could find my crystal ball. lol

 

[avc8130]

You never Know what the future holds. A new job, Loss of a job, divorce, death, etc. I like the idea of being able to keep or sell the boiler in case of a move. I'm currently In a situation that I may have to sell my boiler. I'm hoping not but hey who Knows. I wish I could find my crystal ball. lol

If I had a $10k combo unit in my basement, and I needed to sell it, I would just hop on craigslist and buy one of the 10 $1k oil burners for sale.

Keeping separate just on the basis that I MIGHT have to sell one in the future is not a good enough reason for me. The other problems of flues or switching backup fuel systems FAR out-weigh that minute possibility.

ac

 

[BoilerMan]

I've been following this thread since it started, as many have, Tennman stated ALL of us have been where you are right now.... research.....google......hearth......questions......questions..... It seems like you have your mind made up, all of the suggestions that have been made on the Hearth you've rejected for favor of a conbo unit. Get it if you want if you think it's the right choice for you, we've givien the reasons why we have the units and installations we do and what we've collectivly seen in the past with wood/oil units. I have two class A chimneys on my house and I made (vinyl brick) surrounds for them as I don't care for the polished stainless look on my roof either, but felt that class A's heat up quicker, keep the flue hotter, and are less likely to build creosote with any wood apliance..... So, I did what I thought was the right decision for my situation. Bottom line it's your call, we are here to help, not hinder.

TS

 

[avc8130]

I've been following this thread since it started, as many have, Tennman stated ALL of us have been where you are right now.... research.....google......hearth......questions......questions..... It seems like you have your mind made up, all of the suggestions that have been made on the Hearth you've rejected for favor of a conbo unit. Get it if you want if you think it's the right choice for you, we've givien the reasons why we have the units and installations we do and what we've collectivly seen in the past with wood/oil units. I have two class A chimneys on my house and I made (vinyl brick) surrounds for them as I don't care for the polished stainless look on my roof either, but felt that class A's heat up quicker, keep the flue hotter, and are less likely to build creosote with any wood apliance..... So, I did what I thought was the right decision for my situation. Bottom line it's your call, we are here to help, not hinder.

TS

TS,

Thanks for the advice. I know it is tough to fathom, but I just can't see another class A chimney in any area I could fit my boiler. I already have 3 flues coming up through my rood in 2 locations. I also can't see spending another $5k+ on the "backup" system to convert to propane. I've already chased the propane guy off my property once . If I am buying a propane tank it will be to fill it with water for storage!

I'm still considering the Tarm indoor setup, but an outdoor setup is starting to pique my interest more and more. The idea of the mess all outside is very appealing. As is not lugging the wood down stairs into the basement and the ashes out. I know I would be giving up some efficiency, but I would stick to gassifiers only. The big question with that is how the payback works on a $10k outdoor furnace. There isn't a lot of longterm data on the gassifiers to prove they last long enough without expensive repair/maintenance to make their money back at $2k annual savings on oil.

ac

 

[velvetfoot]

I've read that New York, anyway, is getting picky about the location and height of the outdoor boiler stack.

 

[avc8130]

My wife called the town today. They are sending me the info packet with the regulations/requirements. The lady at the town did say they got more "strict". We shall see.

 

[velvetfoot]

Yeah, you wouldn't want to spend a bunch of money and then have hassles.

 

[woodsmaster]

Yeah, you wouldn't want to spend a bunch of money and then have hassles.

You could do like some of us, and put an indoor unit outdoors in a shed. Cost me the same as an outdoor unit without a shed. Did make my taxes go up slightly, but not enough to worry about. I believe it is probably much nicer loading in a shed then out in the wind, snow, and rain. Less standby heat loss too.

 

[avc8130]

I got the info packet from the town. Really the regs aren't bad at all.

Minimum 2 acre lot: no problem, we have ~12.
Min chimney height: manufacturer's requirement and/or above adjacent residential buildings. Not 100% happy about that since it will mean a bit of a chimney, but not the end of the world.
Distance to property line: 300'. This IS a problem. With the way that lays out on my property, the OWB would have to be in my front yard. I don't like that. We are calling the town to see what options are.

I am back to my thoughts about the Tarm Excel 2200. I am seriously researching this setup with additional storage.

 

[BoilerMan]

I do like the looks of the 2200. I flys in the face of not useing two appliances on the same chimney. You are correct in saying it is basically two appliances sharing a common flue. My only question to an owner of one would be how much fly ash collects in the oil firetubes. Are there turbolators in the fire tubes, it does not appear there are? Nice looking unit though. I'd consider it if I were in your situation.

TS

 

[avc8130]

From my understanding, there are turbulators in the OIL heat exchange tubes and NOT in the WOOD tubes from the factory. This can be changed.

ac

 

[McKraut]

~2 years ago I moved into a new house in the "sticks" of Northern New Jersey. We immediately became wood burners running a Jotul Oslo all winter in an attempt to reduce our oil use. I am starting to put together my "long term plan" to convert to 100% wood use for my house. Here is our current setup:

~2500 sq ft RANCH. 1/2 of the house is 1980 "typical" construction. 2x4 walls, Anderson double-pane casement windows. Attic is well insulated with blow in. The other 1/2 of the house is 2003 construction. 2x6 walls with well insulated attic. This 1/2 has vaulted ceilings. The basement under the "new" 1/2 is also finished (ceiling access still possible).

Current heating setup:
Hot water baseboard, oil-fired w/ 1995 boiler. 5 zones:
1. "Old house" living space.
2. 2 BRs in "old house"
3. 2 BRs in "new house"
4. Master suite in "new house"
5. Finished basement (this has 3 fan assisted radiator units)

Current wood setup:
Jotul Oslo located in family room in the "old" area.
FPX insert in finished basement.

Current heating strategy:
We run the Jotul 100% to capacity. Full loads any/all day the oil burner is firing. This keeps the main living areas of the old section warm Zone 1 never calls for heat. With some creative fans it also keeps Zone 2 heat demand at a minimum. Zones 3 & 4 are heated with Oil. We fire the FPX whenever we are in the finished basement for heat and Zone 5 is set to 50F on oil to provide freeze protection. If the FPX is firing, we can reduce oil Zone 3 & 4 call for heat.

DHW is provided with a Boilermate storage tank run on a separate zone from the oil burner.

My interest in a centralized wood burning is growing rapidly as I still burn through ~600 gallons of oil annually supplying heat/DHW.

I only have 1 flue in my basement, so any indoor solution would need to be a combo unit with oil backup. I don't have any way to power vent due to the lay of the land. We have no natural gas available and I have no interest in adding a propane tank for backup.

The other option is OWB. If I go this route, it would definitely be gassifier.

My main concerns:
Will I be "ok" with my current heating setup (radiators) or should I start planning on a radiant install since I have full access to my floors from the basement?
I realize storage would most likely be ideal (especially if I want to get DHW during the non-heat seasons), but could this be added incrementally later to spread the costs?
Any general suggestions/guidelines to help me come up with an ideal solution?

ac

I am curious, did you decide to get the TARM?

Bob

 

[avc8130]

I am curious, did you decide to get the TARM?

Bob

I did...but then the guy sold it out from under me.

Now I have a Woodgun waiting installation in the basement.

ac

 

[McKraut]

I did...but then the guy sold it out from under me.

Now I have a Woodgun waiting installation in the basement.

ac

Sorry to hear about the j/a that sold the TARM. I think you would have been very happy with it. I hope the Woodgun does a great job. Best of luck to you.

Bob