Help sizing a stove, barn renovation

[Ashful]

I hear what Redd is saying, but as one whose fire boxes are wider than deep, i think this issue is often exaggerated. I load E/W, at least two splits deep and three high, so I'm fitting at least six 20" long splits in the stove. Equivalent to 7-1/2 of those little 16" splits most of the N/S loading stoves use. I'm still getting 12-20 hour burn times, depending on draft and air settings, which beats the vast majority of "deep" stoves reviewed here.

 

[begreen]

All that and your stove is pretty too.

 

[gfirob]

So the north-south loading (if thats what you call it) or the end loading, like the old 118, allows for more efficient loading and performance? Is that the cigar burn? How about radiant vs convection heating? Do the two of them together constitute a better stove or is that pretty much subjective? And I don't discount the way these things look because they sit in the middle of the room for the rest of your life (or the rest of their life) and you have to look at them every day. The cast iron stoves are more appealing to me than the steel ones or the combinations, like the F 45, but in the end, looks can't keep you warm...
Thanks

 

[begreen]

I would also strongly consider a Woodstock Fireview if you like the looks of that stove. It's a side loader so you need 16" hearth on the side. The Fireview is a time proven stove with excellent support behind it. Their Keystone or Palladian would also work.

 

[gfirob]

I liked the Woodstock Fireview and I even got close to figuring out a delivery process, but my wife took one look at the design and gave it a thumbs down. She is a pretty big Jotul fan. But radiant (cast iron) vs convection (steel and Iron) is an interesting question, Jotul F45 vs Jotul F400 for instance.

They cost the same, same specs in terms of output and burn time, but the 400 is more attractive (to my wife).

 

[begreen]

You wife and mine think alike. She simply doesn't like soapstone stoves, they look to dated to her. She too like Jotuls a lot. We went though 2 in 4 years.

 

[Stoneduster]

I am over the hill in Bethel, I have a VC Resolute in a 1,000s.f. house that is, admittedly, poorly insulated. I really like the stove, alot, but I feel that it is a bit oversized for continuous burning. If we were staying in this house longer, I would put effort into snugging up the house and finding a smaller stove that I can run continously, there by avoiding temperature spikes. If I start the stove when I get home, it is generally too hot to sleep comfortably upstairs around 10:00.

 

[begreen]

Isn't the Resolute thermostatically operated? We had the original Resolute in a 900 sq ft house and it kept the temp pretty nice.

 

[Stoneduster]

Yeah, I suppose it is. I guess my tendency is to run it pretty open to achieve a clean burn, I could try turning it down a bit to see if domestic harmony improves.

 

[gfirob]

Thanks, Stoneduster. Bethel is pretty close. I do have a concern about too big a stove and (I hope) this place will be pretty tight when the builder gets the insulation and drywall in. He is a local guy and encouraged more insulation than I originally thought necessary. I think about 25% if the people in Rochester heat with wood.

 

[Ashful]

So the north-south loading (if thats what you call it) or the end loading, like the old 118, allows for more efficient loading and performance? Is that the cigar burn? How about radiant vs convection heating? Do the two of them together constitute a better stove or is that pretty much subjective? And I don't discount the way these things look because they sit in the middle of the room for the rest of your life (or the rest of their life) and you have to look at them every day. The cast iron stoves are more appealing to me than the steel ones or the combinations, like the F 45, but in the end, looks can't keep you warm...

Okay, I'll take a stab at this, since no one else did.

N/S loading is neither more efficient or higher performance. However, a lot of 24/7 burners do favor it because they can stuff the stove fuller without concern of a split rolling into and breaking the glass, than E/W loading. It makes sense, I suppose, except I haven't seen many posts of folks here who've had their glass break from an E/W split rolling into it in the night. Glass is almost always broken during loading, either banging it with a tool, or trying to latch the door when something is sticking out farther than it should.

The "cigar burn" is usually referring to lengthwise stove bodies, such as the Jotul 118. These stoves often have tiny but deep fireboxes which will hold only a few long splits. The air is drafted thru the firebox to promote the wood burning from one end to the other

Radiant vs. convective: All stoves heat by both means, but "convective" stoves usually have a double-wall construction, such that the outer wall runs substantially cooler, and room air is directed between the two panels to circulate into the room. Same mechanism as your fin-tube baseboard heaters. Radiance is the heat you feel in your bones when you stand in front of the stove, and what sets a woodstove apart from a furnace or a boiler, in terms of how they feel to you. Radiance heats the objects in the room, line-of-sight to the stove, and those objects in turn heat the room air (along with the stove itself, of course). I believe a more radiant stove feels much better to anyone who likes to lounge in front of the stove, but a convective stove can be a very effective heater. Most stoves today, even if labeled "convective", still radiate a heck of a lot of heat thru the front glass.

Looks: definitely do not discount this. You can find a pretty stove of just about every configuration, so there's no excuse for buying an ugly stove. Even Blaze King has the Ashford.

 

[gfirob]

Thanks, Joful, very helpful and clear.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

N/S loading is neither more efficient or higher performance. However, a lot of 24/7 burners do favor it because they can stuff the stove fuller without concern of a split rolling into and breaking the glass, than E/W loading. It makes sense, I suppose, except I haven't seen many posts of folks here who've had their glass break from an E/W split rolling into it in the night. Glass is almost always broken during loading, either banging it with a tool, or trying to latch the door when something is sticking out farther than it should.

As it is a lot tougher than it looks I don't worry about breaking door glass - my problem with EW loaders is you physically cannot fill them. A NS stove you can fill easily because you're stacking against the left and right side walls. An EW you're stacking against the rear wall and. . . nothing, because the door is open.

 

[Ashful]

I guess every stove is different, Redd. In my case, it's a non-issue. Andirons hold the logs back down low, and the door arch hold them back up high. So, loading E/W thru my top-load door, I'm literally stacking up between the front and back of the stove. Again, this may be different in other E/W stoves, I can only speak for my own.

I can say that I'd be getting a lot less wood in my stove without the top-load doors. I can only go about 2 rows high thru the front door, before the top of the door lintel pinches me from sliding more splits into the ample upper part of the firebox. This is one of the advantages of the F12 over the F600, although I do think the F600 firebox is about 2" deeper, to make up for this lost headroom.

 

[Woody Stover]

my problem with EW loaders is you physically cannot fill them. A NS stove you can fill easily because you're stacking against the left and right side walls. An EW you're stacking against the rear wall and. . . nothing, because the door is open.

In my case, it's a non-issue.....Andirons hold the logs back down low, and the door arch hold them back up high....I can say that I'd be getting a lot less wood in my stove without the top-load doors.

My stoves (and the Fireview when I had it) have andirons and I load through the side doors. I can absolutely stuff the box loading like this. When top-loading my BIL's old Resolute I had trouble getting full-length splits in the top, and would have to load shorter ones there.

 

[Ashful]

Same here, in theory, Woody. But my stove will take splits up to 22", so I just load in four 20-inchers in the bottom, with two or three 18's on top. So yes, I go a little smaller up top, but still bigger than most stoves.

Bottom line, let your space dictate the stove, and don't worry too much about N/S vs E/W. The N/S stoves tend to be deeper, whereas the E/W stoves tend to be wider and shallower, so it's often your available room or alcove space that dictates what's best.

 

[gfirob]

Thanks very much for the information. What a great forum.
Rob

 

[Jackfre]

Neat thread! You are lucky to be moving to such a great place as VT. I miss it and the people. I won't even begin to get into the stove discussion with these other folks contributing on the stove...other than to say that I've never liked having to big a stove. I will offer a couple suggestions about the building though. As planned, you are not going to have water in the place, but during the construction, if possible, I would rough-in for a bathroom and a kitchen sink. I'm building a garage/shop and roughin in for future fixtures. I'm mid-60's too and may in the future end up turning the place over to the kids and my wife and I move into the apartment we create out of the shop. Anyway, just a thought.

As to positioning the stove, if you buy from the dealer over the hill, I'd suggest that you pay him to deliver and position the stove. My experience is stoves are pretty when in place but man they are ugly when you need to get them from point A to B. That kind of help is cheap at the price. I'd suggest installing a lifting eye above the stove so you can pick it with a come-along and get it on and off a dolly. It's the only way I can handle my stove.

As to your heat loss calcs, they are all a generalization. There are all manner of assumptions made both in the materials, construction and then that all has to get built to the spec. That is the primary reason heating equipment is generally so oversized.

This sounds like a nice project. Please keep us informed of your progress and decisions going forward

 

[gfirob]

Good advice about roughing in the other rooms. I had not thought of that. And the lifting eye is a good thought too. Thanks for the help.
Rob

 

[begreen]

4 persons, (3 men and a boy) moved our 600+# stove in place. The trick was to get it on wheels by ratchet strapping it to a heavy duty appliance dolly. That made moving it from the truck, up a couple steps and into the house quick and easy. Then the four of us moved it onto the hearth in about a minute. Total swap out time for the Castine to the T6 was under an hour.

 

[Ashful]

I did each of mine with just one helper. You've probably heard of him, John Deere.

 

[begreen]

Hope you cleaned up the Deere poop in the living room and sun rooms afterward.

 

[Ashful]

lol!

The Deere was really only used to lift the stove out of the bed of the pickup truck, and set it on a 4-caster dolly. I wheeled the stove thru the house and into final position on the dolly, and then used levers and cribbing to lift the stove, slide the dolly out, and set the stove down.

 

[Stoneduster]

As a stone mason, I often get statements like "wow, that's really hard work." And "that must be hard on the carcass". While there may be some truth to these statements, the fact is, you only need to be smarter than the stone you are trying to move. I suppose the same is true for stoves as well.

 

[husky345 vermont resolute]

Rob. I am no spring chicken. I moved in our 600# T6 with it ratchet strapped to a heavy duty appliance dolly. I had two friends on hand to help. The stove was off the truck and in place in 20 minutes. Once it is on wheels life gets easier.

That's how I got my stove to the basement as well. Plus a couple brews. Easy no probs