Help. Repair after failed WETT

[bholler]

the insurance company would be obligated to pay. Where does it say they don't pay if they find a problem?

No they may not pay. If they find an obvious recent code violation of improper installation they will investigate. If it was installed by someone else they will pay and go after the installer. If it was installed by the homeowner it depends how the policy is written many times they will not pay

 

[DougA]

This is hard to believe, because SOMETHING has to cause the fire, and if a problem develops with the chimney or stove leading to damage, the insurance company would be obligated to pay. Where does it say they don't pay if they find a problem?

In Canada (OP is in Canada) the laws are different. Ontario is worse again. If an insurance company can show that there was a pre-existing condition that you did not make them fully aware of, they can claim that you are co-responsible for the loss. IOW, they might pay 50% or 0%. Similarly if you insure your home for $200,000. but it is worth $400,000., you only get 1/2 of the loss.

 

[Kimmy71]

Sorry, late to the party on this one, but I am in a very similar situation with the same model of fireplace (Selkirk 832) and same location (Ottawa), so don't see the point in starting a new thread.

We bought or house about 6 years ago, it was built in about 1970 and I am guessing that the fireplace and chimney are original or close to it. We have never used the fireplace as the chimney was pretty rusted out when we bought the place. I originally bought a stainless steel chimney second hand, but in good shape, planning to replace the existing one, but never got around to it. Now the wife is compaining that the basement, where the fireplace is located, is too drafty in the winter. Like many of you, we had a long and hard winter this past year, so now we are looking for options to replace the fireplace and/or chimney. Our options include an insert (wood or natural gas), a new fireplace install or possibly just replace the chimney.

Of course, every company we contact recommends removal and new install, but that is $5-10k and it will be impossible to match the brickwork with the rest of the basement. You can see from the attached pictures, most of our basement is brick, including the fireplace. When we moved in, we painted the bricks and installed new floors, so I don't want to go messing with a new install now if we can avoid it.

Any advice would be appreciated.

View attachment 135455 View attachment 135456

Reply to DouggyD:


The 832 was never approved for:

- glass doors – not even aftermarket glass doors; as seen on this unit

- 90° Tee out thru wall – was listed with 15 or 30 degrees elbows only


You cannot install a gas fireplace insert in this model.

Suggest you remove and install a New Direct vent gas fireplace complete.

Good luck , Hope this helps!

 

[DouggyD]

Great, thanks for the reply Kimmy! I have had similar feedback from 2 other companies today. Not what I want to hear, but what can you do.

 

[Yagminas Masonry and Wood-heat]

In Canada (OP is in Canada) the laws are different. Ontario is worse again. If an insurance company can show that there was a pre-existing condition that you did not make them fully aware of, they can claim that you are co-responsible for the loss. IOW, they might pay 50% or 0%. Similarly if you insure your home for $200,000. but it is worth $400,000., you only get 1/2 of the loss.

After submitting many inspection reports with code violations listed, I wonder if the Insurance companies even read the reports. I also wonder if these reports "disappear" in the event of a claim for hearth related damage.

Kev

 

[DougA]

My understanding from my insurance broker was that if my stove did not pass WETT and they had a copy of the report, I could not get home insurance at all. I have a mortgage so home insurance is mandatory. You're stuck. Since it's the home owner that arranges the WETT inspection, I doubt any of the failed reports would ever make it to the insurance companies. Even WETT inspectors know of others that will pass an inspection that they have previously failed. I actually looked into getting myself certified but you have to have a minimum of a 80weeks working in the industry before you can try the exam. It's a simple pass of 70% to get your certification.

It's pretty similar to the water well tests that are mandatory to obtain a new mortgage if you are on a well. The test MUST be 0-0. In our region, I very much doubt there is any well that can still test 0-0 if the test is legitimate, so everyone bleaches the well, then tests. I recall that the gov't allows 17 ppm but the banks require 0-0. Stupidity seems to know no bounds.

 

[Yagminas Masonry and Wood-heat]

Homeowners have a little bit of "fight" in them when it comes to insurance. If the code infraction on the report is minor, a homeowner could argue it and get away without repairs. Threaten to go somewhere else and they do get a little more "bend-able".

I've had many customers submit reports with deficiencies listed. Yes, some insist on work being done to make the system compliant but many do not reply back to the homeowner at all. Funny world....

Instead of a WETT inspection report, sometimes the insurance company will accept the original building permit if a masonry fireplace was built at time of house construction.

Also, yes, WETT members are various individuals, from all sorts of backgrounds. You will certainly have different members interpret the Code differently in some cases. We often discuss "grey areas" and try to align our thinking and interpretation of the Code.

 

[fire_man]

How does an inspector verify a hearth meets the woodstove manufacturer's required "R" value? Once everything is covered up it's impossible without damaging the hearth.

 

[DouggyD]

OK guys, small update for you. The insert recommended by one company was the Enviro E20, but the firebox/glass on that unit is only about 21"x12" and the hole for the current fireplace is about 37"x26", so I think that particular insert will look really tiny in the space. Most companies I contacted are recommending that we tear out the old and install a new direct vent gas fireplace, as most of you had also recommended. However, I do want to keep the existing brick as itmatches the rest of the basesment. We also re-did the floor there recently and don't want to get into re-doing that either. I am proposing to take out the old firebox and chimney out the wall to the right of the fireplace (see attached), and then insert the new gas unit behind the brick. The models I am looking at now are the Regency Horizon or Panorama (HZ33CE or P33CE). These models are about 29"x21", so much bigger than the E20 insert, but still a little bit small for the hole. The height seems to be the limiting factor,as the hole in the brick seems to be a bit of an odd size. Are there any other models that you could think of that would come closer to filling the hole (37"x26").

 

[begreen]

Sounds like you should start a new post with a link in the "It's a Gas" forum here.

 

[Grisu]

Regency offers a variety of surrounds to match the fireplace to the opening: (broken link removed to http://www.regency-fire.com/CMSPages/GetFile.aspx?nodeguid=3dcb7ec8-f922-4605-adf7-700ddbb5dffa)
How much of an area do you want to heat? Putting a huge fireplace in may be a waste when you only want to heat one room. Will a large gas fireplace mesh with the clearances to combustibles?

I second the recommendation to ask in the gas forum but here are some more options: http://www.heatnglo.com/browse/fireplaces/gas-fireplaces.aspx#

 

[DouggyD]

OK, thanks again for the input. I created a new thread in the gas section: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/replacing-a-wood-burning-fireplace-with-natural-gas.129188/

I am not really looking for a surround for the Regency unit, it will just need a bit (~3") of black trim on either side and then it can just butt up against the brick. The basement area that I want to heat is only about 500 sq. ft. and we already have a high-efficiency natural gas furnace, it is just that the current firplace is creating a big cold draft in the basement, even after I closed the flue and stuffed some insulation up there.

The brick surround is about 5' wide x 4' high + the hearth and there are no studs or drywall in behind the brick, so not a big concern for combustibles. I don't want to go too big, just don't want to loose too much size either or it will not look proportionate. The P/HZ33CE looks like a good balance.

 

[Yagminas Masonry and Wood-heat]

How does an inspector verify a hearth meets the wood-stove manufacturer's required "R" value? Once everything is covered up it's impossible without damaging the hearth.

Great question! I suppose my answer would be I would not verify the hearth pad construction unless there are other serious deficiencies found elsewhere in the system which would prompt me to investigate further.. What I mean is why scrutinize the pad when everything else appears to be top notch?

Notice the word "appears".....very handy word for inspectors. An inspector can really only comment on what he/she can see. If an inspector starts to comment on things that cannot be confirmed, then that inspector is setting themselves up for liability.

I do not use a check-list method either. Just a couple of paragraphs of deficiencies I have seen/found. I do not say "it is safe" or "100% compliant" or things like that. If I do not see/find any deficiencies, all my report would say is " No deficiencies found".


Sorry for jumping in on this thread guys.......

 

[fire_man]

Interesting reply. So if there was damage because the hearth was not adequate, who would be liable?
I saved Micore and receipts for the inspector.

 

[Yagminas Masonry and Wood-heat]

Interesting reply. So if there was damage because the hearth was not adequate, who would be liable?
I saved Micore and receipts for the inspector.

If the homeowner pulled a permit and the municipal inspector ok'd it....the municipality would be to blame.(try it though....they are well protected with disclaimers and such)

If the homeowner did it without a permit, whomever built it would be at fault.

If the inspector was given the construction details(drawings) and they did not meet code but he ok'd it....the inspector would be liable.

If the homeowner gave detailed drawings but did not build it like the drawings, the builder would be at fault.