help prevent a divorce ;) and pick a stove

[elkimmeg]

Man, craig takes all the fun out of it. So whats the deal, does heathstone only assemble in vermont too?

Like I said the only casting enamaling and essembly plant in North America I was not streching the truth but unfortunately telling reality. MSG better pracice up you spanish Hearthstone Once was in VT they have a token facility there to cash in of VT ingenuity
They even have you believing there coolaide speel.. Jotul are cast in Belgium Even they have outsourced to the pacific Basin

BB it does help to have VC stoves when it comes to inspections. Installed non compliant they fail

 

[BrotherBart]

Jotul are cast in Belgium Even they have outsourced to the pacific Basin

OK who did it? Who moved Belgium?

 

[cbrodsky]

To start, don't worry about the hijacks, they can still be interesting and useful in terms of info...
Now back to the issues at hand...
I find it interesting that you folks brought up the issues regarding the outside wall. I was saying today that might suck away heat and that we should get someone to cut some sort of steel blocker and then put that inside the fire to stop the heat from going all the way back into there.

Hubby pointed out that hearthstone sells optional rear heat shields and fan w/built in thermostat and rheostat. Would that help w/placement issues and be better for placement in front of a fireplace.

The reason we were tending away from the homestead is that he likes the larger firebox than what is available in it.

We are looking specifically at wood as we have our own free supply of hardwood on our property. Why pay for some other fuel when you can get oak with little more than sweat equity.

Like I mentioned before I am still interested in that darned lopi leyden, I wish someone had some info we could see. The closest dealer which is about an hour away said they still don't have any yet.

One issue that hasn't been discussed is warranty. The Hearthstone seems as though their warranty is MUCH better than Vermont Castings, anyone deal with either in terms of warranty...?

Holly

One piece of input I can give you is that we use our stove in the same manner you hope to - running 24x7 as primary heat, and my wife and I both commute to full time jobs 30 minutes away. We are also both engineers putting in 8 hrs/day min - often more. Thus we easily test 10-12 hours away from the home.

I don't think you'll find any stove that is still a roaring fire when you come home. However, we do find that our Woodstock Fireview (soapstone) consistently has enough coals that we can quickly restart a fire just by throwing some new dry splits in. While gone, we let it burn in the 450-550 range - not full out maximum upper limit, but throwing off very solid heat. By the time we get home, it's anywhere from 300-400 on average despite it being down to just coals. This also makes it easy to crank up again. Obviously if you use bad wood, or burn it at upper end of allowable range, you will not get this result. On the other hand, careful management and great wood has given us coals that restarted a fire as long as 15 hours from leaving in the morning. This functionality is really important to us as my goal is to make sure the oil heat backup stays off as much as possible.

I suspect the Hearthstone will give you similar performance if the firebox is a good size - ours is 2.2 cu ft. The more wood you put in there to start, with modern controlled air intakes, you can stretch it out for hours. A smaller firebox will make your life harder. I think the Heritage may be similar - although some would argue it will be harder to stretch out a long burn without a catalyst. You may want to see if Hearthstone sells a larger firebox model to ensure it does what you need if you are against catalytic stoves. The more wood you start with in the morning, the better your odds of a warm home 10 hours later.

-Colin

 

[webbie]

OK who did it? Who moved Belgium?

Jotul also owns Nestor Martin, former make of Surdiac and others....I think that foundry is in Belgium.

But, yes, most or all Jotul castings are made at main plant in Norway.

HearthStone is just assembled in Vt - But keep in mind that Hergom (Spanish parent) has an incredible foundry - completely updated with one of the biggest automatic molders in the world - and an enamel plant. It is a much more advanced foundry than VC, as it makes pressure vessels (boiler, radiators) and much more.

HearthStone never had a foundry, even when it was an American Company.

US Stove has their own foundry in Tennessee....some others might also (I have to think hard).

 

[BrotherBart]

I was just trying to figure out when Belgium moved to the Pac Rim.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Y2K?

 

[Rhone]

Okay, I think people have gotten carried away on this thread. To sum up, stoves are NOT meant to be inside fireplaces they're designed to be in the open. You will be disappointed with a stove in your fireplace. Those people who wanted stoves inside their fireplaces found their performance disappointing so they went about trying to fix the problems. They put metal shields around them to try to direct more heat into the living area. They added fans to blow the heated air from being trapped inside the fireplace, and they added air channels. Those stoves mutated and morphed into what became the invention of the fireplace insert which gives you the most heat into the living area while minimizing heat loss to the fireplace. The right tool for the job that gets the most heat out of a fireplace with minimal loss to the masonry particularly outside chimneys is an insert but, not a lot of fun if you don't like them or the surrounds won't work with your particular fireplace.

Okay, that said it's pretty easy making a stove work particularly if you have a strange fireplace. You should place the stove outside the fireplace on the hearth, and cover the opening of your fireplace with a metal shield, with an opening in it for the flue to fit. That's the best method, the other method is to have it resting out on the hearth with a rear heat shield and leaving the fireplace open. I don't find that method particularly attractive, usually the fireplace is covered in black, and collects dust, and just looks odd to me to see a wood stove in front of a fireplace opening... ya know? (broken link removed to http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/images/wood_stoves/homestead/HomesteadBlack02.jpg). See how there's the metal shield closing off the fireplace opening and the stove is in front on the hearth? (broken link removed to http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/images/wood_stoves/homestead/HomesteadMatte.jpg) Both have extended their hearth in different ways to make such an installation safe, and both have closed off the opening of their fireplace.

As for stoves, I always recommend soapstone if you can afford it because it minimizes the risk of roasting, they provide year round beauty, but their problem is they're not the best candidates for "quick heat". They provide rather even heat and spread it over the burn whereas metal units can provide a lot of heat in little time but generally fall short on spreading it evenly over time.

 

[ianandholly]

The inability to find an insert that would even fit was what initially turned the hubby off... Being 43w x 36h, none of the dealers had anything that would cover the opening, 34 was the max height we found and i believe that was in a Jotul and not bad looking in my opinion. Regardless, that is what took him to the free standing stoves instead of inserts in the first place. If anyone knows of anything that might fit and isn't a monster, let me know... and I'll try to show it to him.

Holly

 

[Rhone]

That is one huge opening!

I think you should probably skip the inserts and stick with your original plan of stoves. You'll have trouble finding an insert whose surround will fit, and the insert will look really overpowered compared to it's surround for that size. I'd stick with the stoves with a rear heat shield, probably leave the opening as it is, and mention to the dealer you want to make sure there's a block-off plate installed. It may be required. That's a plate that goes where your current damper is to block off air flow from the chimney. They also seal up top to your chimney, but I've found my seals broke up there in no time and had it not been for my block-off plate below I'd have had a wind tunnel coming down my chimney and into my living area. So, I'd go for the Heritage because it's year round beauty and the soapstone has subtle heat, with a rear heat shield, block-off plate at the damper area, and you'll probably need to extend the hearth.

 

[daninohio]

Holly,

Both Hearthstone (Clydesdale) and Vermont Castings (Large Winterwarm) have extended surrounds for their inserts that should cover your whole opening. If you look at the specs on their websites they are each 36" high and wider than your opening. Most other brands I read about also had extended surrounds.

A quick look shows the Jotul and Pacific insert oversized surrounds topping out at 34".

 

[begreen]

Holly, can you post a picture of the fireplace? That would help visualizing a solution. I agree with Rhone and like the look of a freestanding stove in a big fireplace opening. If you follow his suggestions and get a stove with a blower option I think you'll be happy.

But there almost always is an option for a clever installer. I had to make a larger surround for my pellet stove. What I found was that many surrounds are just 20 guage, painted black sheet metal, with picture frame trim. If you and hubby really prefer an insert, a framed surround extension can be made up that would attach to the existing insert's surround. For that reason I started looking at the Hearthstone Clydesdale. This stove is claiming a 10 hr. burntime and 12 hr. heat life due to the soapstone lining.
http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/wood_stoves/clydesdale/

MSG, Hearthstone says they have surround extensions for the Clydesdale, but I haven't found the dimensions. Could you provide the max opening that the surround extensions cover - part 94-5990010? Also, do you know how much height do the surround caps add?

(posts crossed - daninohio - do you have the surround extension dimensions? Is there a picture?)

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I would be happy too, but today is daddy day, and i wont be at work untill wensday. I will check then.

 

[cbrodsky]

Holly, can you post a picture of the fireplace? That would help visualizing a solution. I agree with Rhone and like the look of a freestanding stove in a big fireplace opening. If you follow his suggestions and get a stove with a blower option I think you'll be happy.

(posts crossed - daninohio - do you have the surround extension dimensions? Is there a picture?)

I'd agree with this as well. A good freestanding stove install can look great and the heat will do a great job of getting out into the room with a rear heatshield. I find that our stove throws much more heat to the front and sides than the back, even without the rear heatshield. I think the key is to get it out forward enough that the sides are radiating to the room and not your exterior chimney - then you should be in great shape.

-Colin

 

[Drew2]

Why not get one of (broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/pages/wood_stove_fireview.html) I just did.
They seem to fit your requirement for long burn times, look nice (IMHO), and one of the big selling points for me is that there is a 6 month money back guarantee.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Why not get one of (broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/pages/wood_stove_fireview.html) I just did.
They seem to fit your requirement for long burn times, look nice (IMHO), and one of the big selling points for me is that there is a 6 month money back guarantee.

non-cat was one of the requirements, nice stove though and welcome to the forum!

 

[Harley]

Okay, that said it's pretty easy making a stove work particularly if you have a strange fireplace. You should place the stove outside the fireplace on the hearth, and cover the opening of your fireplace with a metal shield, with an opening in it for the flue to fit. That's the best method, the other method is to have it resting out on the hearth with a rear heat shield and leaving the fireplace open. I don't find that method particularly attractive, usually the fireplace is covered in black, and collects dust, and just looks odd to me to see a wood stove in front of a fireplace opening... ya know? (broken link removed to http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/images/wood_stoves/homestead/HomesteadBlack02.jpg). See how there's the metal shield closing off the fireplace opening and the stove is in front on the hearth? (broken link removed to http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/images/wood_stoves/homestead/HomesteadMatte.jpg) Both have extended their hearth in different ways to make such an installation safe, and both have closed off the opening of their fireplace.

OK... now this has me thinking..... not to hijack the thread, but I'll ask the question here, since this is where Rhonemas' comment was made.

I hadn't thought about the rear heat shield for the Heritage in my installation, since rear clearance wasn't an issue. I'm not going to be covering up the fireplace opening (no real practical way to close it up without making it look like crap). It is on an inside wall. I was thinking the heat out the back of the stove would only help to heat up the mass of the fireplace itself, and would be beneficial.

Does it make sense to put on the rear heat shield in this case? Would it help? (picture of the layout is in the picture section)

 

[Todd]

Why not get one of (broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/pages/wood_stove_fireview.html) I just did.
They seem to fit your requirement for long burn times, look nice (IMHO), and one of the big selling points for me is that there is a 6 month money back guarantee.

Welcome to the club! You will love this stove!

 

[Todd]

Okay, that said it's pretty easy making a stove work particularly if you have a strange fireplace. You should place the stove outside the fireplace on the hearth, and cover the opening of your fireplace with a metal shield, with an opening in it for the flue to fit. That's the best method, the other method is to have it resting out on the hearth with a rear heat shield and leaving the fireplace open. I don't find that method particularly attractive, usually the fireplace is covered in black, and collects dust, and just looks odd to me to see a wood stove in front of a fireplace opening... ya know? (broken link removed to http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/images/wood_stoves/homestead/HomesteadBlack02.jpg). See how there's the metal shield closing off the fireplace opening and the stove is in front on the hearth? (broken link removed to http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/images/wood_stoves/homestead/HomesteadMatte.jpg) Both have extended their hearth in different ways to make such an installation safe, and both have closed off the opening of their fireplace.

OK... now this has me thinking..... not to hijack the thread, but I'll ask the question here, since this is where Rhonemas' comment was made.

I hadn't thought about the rear heat shield for the Heritage in my installation, since rear clearance wasn't an issue. I'm not going to be covering up the fireplace opening (no real practical way to close it up without making it look like crap). It is on an inside wall. I was thinking the heat out the back of the stove would only help to heat up the mass of the fireplace itself, and would be beneficial.

Does it make sense to put on the rear heat shield in this case? Would it help? (picture of the layout is in the picture section)

No, as long as you have a block off plate where your fireplace damper use to be to keep the heat from escaping up the chimney, and it's on an inside wall, I think your correct in assuming the extra mass heating will be beneficially. If fireplace is next to outside wall the heat will be sucked out by the cold and a heat shield would help.

Another question would be, how long do you burn? If burn 24/7 that extra mass will help because it stays warm all the time. If you burn occasionally, and have a alot of cold masonary, that extra mass will take hours to heat up before you feel the effects.

 

[Harley]

No, as long as you have a block off plate where your fireplace damper use to be to keep the heat from escaping up the chimney, and it's on an inside wall, I think your correct in assuming the extra mass heating will be beneficially. If fireplace is next to outside wall the heat will be sucked out by the cold and a heat shield would help.

Another question would be, how long do you burn? If burn 24/7 that extra mass will help because it stays warm all the time. If you burn occasionally, and have a alot of cold masonary, that extra mass will take hours to heat up before you feel the effects.

That's kind of what I was thinking, Todd. The liner isn't in yet, but there will be a blockoff plate around the damper section when it's done. For the most part, I will be burning 24/7, as I have done in the past. Since this is a completely new setup from the previous stove... just thinking about ways to get the most heat out it that I can.

 

[Rhone]

I always get the rear heat shield for a stove so I can get more convection heat that I can blow and move to other parts of my house but, give it a year, if you find the extremeties of your house aren't heating as much as you'd like a rear heat shield will give your stove a little boost in that department. The rear heat shield converts the radiant heat from the back into convection heat, which convection heat travels around and isn't restricted to the room it's in and why it'll help heat the extremeties.

Each persons setup is different, I have an internal fireplace and most of the heat that goes into the masonry of my fireplace is lost. Given the options, and the fact heat wants to go to the coldest areas first, it's pretty simple to figure out most heat to my masonry is mostly whisked through the brick into the 10F attic above. Which, it does instead of going to heat the 90F area in front, or travel through R3 wall in the back to a 70F room. Very little is recovered in my living area. I wouldn't get the heat shield just yet, first experiment and try without the first year. Study how much heat or how warm the masonry in the back gets, and do you feel warming up the masonry makes the room comfortable and is holding temps longer in that room, and are the extremeties of your house just fine. If so, you won't need the shield. You have a unique looking chimney, that's pretty cool and the Heritage is such a beautiful looking stove and very versatile. I bet your anxious to get it going!

 

[Harley]

Thanks, Rhonemas.... good advice - and yes... very anxious to get it in place and going (starting to get a few somewhat chilly nights around here).

 

[jjbaer]

I have to agree on some of the inserts. Like a Lopi Answer or Napoleon (low end) just look like boxes sticking out. But the VC Winterwarm are really nice. There are a number of other inserts that look very nice also with cast iron fronts that are very attractive. I happen to also like my Osburn. At first I didn't think it would be all that great, but it turns out the bay window is really attractive. You get a great view of the fire from all angles.

On the other hand the stoves your looking at really are hard to beat on looks. I particularly like the black enamel VC stoves, but they do have a reputation for the paint chipping especially near the door where it tends to get bumped. The enamel cleans easily.

I do also like the look of hearthstones, and the Woodstocks also look nice with the soapstone.

Well, I'm sorry I can't help prevent a divorce. The best advice I have for your husband....is pick what she likes!

Any guy who hasn't figured that out yet needs counseling.

I looked at every insert made and the two nicest "furniture quality" inserts are, hands-down, the VC Winter Warm Large and the Jotul C450 and 350. I bought the Jotul C450 and love it!

 

[bcnu]

Walked into the stove store to finalize deal on a Jotul Castine. They had a Hearthstone Heritage with a nice fire going. Short story - my wife really liked it. Came home and started reading up on the Heritage. The slower heat up is no problem and the longer heat retention is a plus. Haven't found many negative comments for the Heritage - or for soapstone in general. We also have a fireplace on inside wall and will insulate with liner. I can get the stove even with or in front of the opening - but glad to read about the heat shield. I (think) I like the side loading option with the Heritage. I was going to start a thread and see if other soapstone owners - Heritage in particular - had any helpful comments. Based on what I've read here, and on a couple other posts - looks like we'll be getting the Heritage. Sorry guys, I don't have any comments on where it's made, however, I will be buying it in the USA ;-)

 

[stoveguy2esw]

CFM has headquarters in Canada but owned by stock holders world wide. Traded on the Toronto exchange

Cast iron forging is done in Bethel VT. That I believe, is still part of USA.

Mentioned is the Encore but not mentioned and recently, also non cat version ever burn technology, is the larger Defiant model

England's stove works, based in Monroe Va. owner lives 3 miles from the factory american made and owned (sorry, had to do that )

my advise would be the hearthstone simply because of the soapstone holding heat longer, beautiful units too looking at the 10 hour burn/heating time that would likely be the best bet, the VC that elk mentioned or the large PE would be good choices as well in NON-CAT as you are not shopping catalyst units.

just my 2 cents

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Why not get one of (broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/pages/wood_stove_fireview.html) I just did.
They seem to fit your requirement for long burn times, look nice (IMHO), and one of the big selling points for me is that there is a 6 month money back guarantee.

beautiful unit! they do not offer a non-cat????