Help me upgrade and upsize my wood stove!

[KennyK]

Hi all,

A month ago I had my chimney lined and installed a little Jotul F100. I knew it was way undersized for my home, but due to mantle clearance issues, this was what worked, and I figured the main thing was getting the liner done well and then I could reassess the stove situation (plus I got the F100 for $150 on craigslist, so no big loss to swap it out). I love having a wood stove, and quickly realized that not only is the F100 not cutting for my house but not even my first floor nor even the stove room, which I can only get up to about low to mid 70s at best. I am ready to go much bigger now, even if that means taking out the mantle, but it might not. One absolute restriction I have, I believe, is that I need a rear venting stove that can fit in a 30 inch opening, and an insert wont work due to a shallow fireplace firebox.

My home is a bit over 2000 square feet, three story victorian from 1890s with original windows (a bunch of them and they are large at 34.5"x67") with not so great storm windows added in the 80s or 90s, I had blown in insulation in all the walls, and it's fairly drafty. We mainly used the first two floors, but the third floor is a nice finished non-heated attic, and I'd use it more in the winter if it were warmer up there. I have a forced hot air furnace on floors one and two, and 9 foot ceilings throughout the first two stories. My first floor doesn't have an open floor plan, but there are open doorways throughout (with no doors on them), the stove is in the center of the first floor, there is an oversized open double door opening that opens from the stove room to the living room next to it, and the stove room and adjacent living room both have open doorways that lead to an open staircase up to the second floor. The staircase to the third floor is also open.

My thoughts on getting a larger stove are to either remove the mantle so I don't have those clearance issues, or to run a horizontal double walled pipe far enough to get me far enough past the mantle, but not so far that I loose draft (i.e. no more than 18 to 24 inches). The opening of the T from my liner to my firebox opening is 6.5 inches, so I'd need 18 inches of horizontal pipe to just reach the end of the 12 inch mantle. I have a 30 foot 6 inch, smooth walled liner (which I hear gives 20% more draft), and draft has seemed good so far. I'm including a layout of my house, which is relatively accurate, and a pic of my fireplace with all dimensions.

One other possibly relevant detail is whatever the temp of my stove room, the upstairs is consistently 6 degrees cooler - so if it's 71 in stove room, it's 65 upstairs. Not sure if this would carry over to other set ups.

Here's what I've already researched and am debating:

1) Woodstock Ideal Steel. I love the stove, the possibility of serious warmth and long burns, and like the idea of a cat. I spoke with Woodstock, and after looking at my setup via this info above and pictures, they told me the stove was the right size for my house, that I could get it past the mantle and be fine leaving the mantle up with a rear heat shield on the stove and heat shields for the mantle, and I'd have no problem with draft with the horizontal run (they thought I might even want to add a damper with my chimney height), however, they felt that the stove was too big for the stove room and might give me temps as high as 90 in that room! I asked about running the stove low, and they said that I knew the airflow of my house better than they did, but they still cautioned that it could be very warm in that room (by the way, my family and I like warm, that said, 90 might be a bit ridiculous!)

2) Jotul F45. I believe I can make clearances to my mantel with heat shields and the short leg kit. I like what I've heard about this stove, but fear that it might only heat my first floor, or have a lot of that heat escape upstairs and I may continue to be frustrated by no place in my home being warm enough due to it not being big enough.

3) Jotul F55 - I'm confused on Jotul's technical manual for this stove - at one place it says there is no short leg option for this stove (which means it won't work) and in another part of the same manual it says there's a short leg kit that makes it about 4 inches short - what gives?!?! If this is an option, I'm not sure about if I could pull it out far enough to make it work with the mantle or if I'd need to remove the mantle.

Beyond this, I'm open to thoughts, and would love some suggestions, opinions, technical details and potential benefits and pitfalls. My mantle is beautiful, from the 1890s and I hate to tear it down, but I think warmth and comfort will take precedence if necessary.

Thank you hearth friends!

Kenny

 

[begreen]

Hard to read the images, but I think the F45 is what I suggested earlier. Seems about the right size. The Quadrafire Explorer II might also work. Whatever the stove choice, get the blower option with it.

 

[KennyK]

Hard to read the images, but I think the F45 is what I suggested earlier. Seems about the right size. The Quadrafire Explorer II might also work. Whatever the stove choice, get the blower option with it.

I agree that the F45 is a good size to fit on my hearth without having to pull it out too far nor remove the mantel, but do you think it's the right size for my home and what I'm hoping to achieve (nice and warm on first and second floors)? I've attached the images again here in a format they may be easier to read.

I'm still daydreaming about the Woodstock Ideal Steel. Do you think that I'd be at serious risk of heating myself (and family) out of the stove room? One hearth.com member PM'd me a suggestion that as I have forced hot air heating, that if I had an intake duct in the stove room, I could wire my forced air system to just run the fan have the heat from the stove room move through the ducts around the house. Well, it just so happens that I have an intake duct in the floor about five feet from the side of where the stove would sit. Does that sound to you like it could be viable?

The Quadrafire looks nice, but I'm having trouble getting much clarity on the mantel clearances from their online literature. How do you think this compares with the F45, Ideal Steel or other options?

 

[begreen]

The Ideal Steel might work if clearances pass muster. It may be idling during milder weather. Getting heat circulating out of the dining room is the issue. How large are the openings to the kitchen and to the stairwell?

The Explorer appears to be ok though I think I would still shield the mantel.

 

[KennyK]

The Ideal Steel might work if clearances pass muster. It may be idling during milder weather. Getting heat circulating out of the dining room is the issue. How large are the openings to the kitchen and to the stairwell?

The Explorer appears to be ok though I think I would still shield the mantel.
View attachment 223037

The opening to the kitchen is 31"x79", the opening from the dining room (which with the stove we've converted to a living room) to the stairwell is 31"x79.5". The opening from the dining room to the living room is 59"x84.5", and the opening from the living room to the stairwell is 31"x79.5". I've attached some pics here. I also forgot to mention I have ceiling fans in both the dining and living rooms.

When I spoke with Woodstock about meeting the Ideal Steel clearances without tearing out my mantel they said pulling the stove out to have 18 inches of horizontal double walled pipe to the T (I think that would be 18 horizontal run plus the 4.5" of flue collar that the Ideal Steel has) would be fine, meet clearances and not poorly impact the draft with my chimney height. On a separate but related note, that does put the stove as taking up a decent amount of floor space in the room (especially when considering how much I will need to extend the hearth).

One thing I couldn't tell on the Explorer was the clearance to 1" surround, but maybe I could pull it out a bit with double walled horizontal pipe to get around that if it were an issue.

As always, your input is much appreciated!

 

[Zack R]

I can add more later but the F45 is no slouch when it comes to heat output. Just a few mornings ago it was 0F outside and I still didn't need to run the F45 at full throttle to keep the house warm.

 

[weatherguy]

No matter what stove you choose I doubt draft will be a problem. I know with my PH on high doesn't drive me out of the room but the soapstone softens the heat. The IS with soapstone sides may soften the heat also. BB suggestion sounds good also.

 

[KennyK]

I can add more later but the F45 is no slouch when it comes to heat output. Just a few mornings ago it was 0F outside and I still didn't need to run the F45 at full throttle to keep the house warm.

Thanks Zack, I definitely appreciate your helpful input on the F45 (what you've already shared with me and others on this site, and any more thoughts that you have are also very welcome), and your love of this new stove! My concern is the size of my home (over 2000 sq. ft), plus the not great insualtion, drafty windows, etc. While I can do some tightening up of my house, it was built in 1890, so there's only so much I can do. I believe your house is at least 25% smaller and much tighter. That said, I'm not ruling out the F45 option and would love any further thoughts. Some specific things I'm curious about are how high are your ceilings, how big is your stove room, and how warm are you keeping the stove room and the rest of the house on those cold days? Also,one thing I've heard about the Woodstock hybrids is how great they are on fuel efficiency with some people saying they burn much less wood than on their prior (also good) stoves. Not sure what your basis for comparison is on this, but how do you feel about the wood consumption with the F45? Any other thoughts are also much welcome! Thanks!

 

[begreen]

No matter what stove you choose I doubt draft will be a problem. I know with my PH on high doesn't drive me out of the room but the soapstone softens the heat. The IS with soapstone sides may soften the heat also. BB suggestion sounds good also.

OTOH photog just installed a PH and has to keep a couple windows cracked open to avoid overheating the house. There is a point where having too much heat is not efficient. The question is, is it more efficient to have a stove sized for 90% of the heating requirements and to run the central heat for the remaining 10% (below zero days) or is it more efficient to have a stove that is 110% over capacity to cover those 10% below zero days, but requiring opening windows on the above freezing days?

 

[KennyK]

No matter what stove you choose I doubt draft will be a problem. I know with my PH on high doesn't drive me out of the room but the soapstone softens the heat. The IS with soapstone sides may soften the heat also. BB suggestion sounds good also.

Thanks Weatherguy! If I get the IS, I will absolutely go with the soapstone liner and side panels. When you (and others) say the soapstone softens out the heat, what do you mean by that?

How big is your stove room and ceiling height, as well as the rest of the house you are heating? What kind of temps are you getting in your stove room and rest of house with the PH? Also, I may be being dense here, but what is "BB"? ("BB suggestion sounds good also."). Thanks!

 

[begreen]

Another stove to consider is the Hampton H300. It is a good looking and well made 1.7 cu ft. stove with rear vent option. It has a mantel clearance of 48" from hearth floor and 15" to the side legs of the mantel. Again, I would install a mantel shield for extra protection. The stove is 27" wide.

 

[Zack R]

Softens out the heat means that with a soapstone or cast iron stove its not such a harsh blast of heat, like say a steel stove. The thermal mass takes longer to warm up but also takes longer to cool down so you get a smoother rise and fall.

 

[begreen]

Softens out the heat means that with a soapstone or cast iron stove its not such a harsh blast of heat, like say a steel stove. The thermal mass takes longer to warm up but also takes longer to cool down so you get a smoother rise and fall.

Note that this softer heat is with cast iron clad stoves like the F45 and the Explorer II. Straight cast iron stoves like a Jotul F400 (and the little F100) are much more radiant. I wouldn't call it a harsh blast of heat, but one feels the heat more immediately around the stove and side clearances are greater to account for the increased heat.

 

[Zack R]

Note that this softer heat is with cast iron clad stoves like the F45 and the Explorer II. Straight cast iron stoves like a Jotul F400 (and the little F100) are much more radiant. I wouldn't call it a harsh blast of heat, but one feels the heat more immediately around the stove and side clearances are greater to account for the increased heat.

Thanks for the clarification. Having the jacketed stove definitely does help with this.

On really cold nights I go with a "momentum" routine where I get the stove room up to 78F and have the stovetop at 500-600F before bed. As the night goes by the stove tapers down and the room eventually cools down to 65F (this would be on a 0F night, around 18F at 10:00pm). The upstairs drops down into the low 60's which is perfect for sleeping. At 7:00am the next morning there are still some coals but the stovetop is cool enough I can touch it.

Keep in mind I'm burning 100% pine which doesn't have near the BTU or duration of hardwoods. I would likely modify this routine if I was burning hardwood.

Thus far I haven't had a situation where I can't keep the house warm enough with the stove. If run at full throttle for very long the room temp would surpass 80F even on a cold day.

 

[begreen]

Agreed. I have had both in our house and I really prefer the cast iron jacketed stove. The mass of cast iron acts like a flywheel that you charge up during the peak of the fire and then that heat is release gradually as the fire dies down. It make a big difference in reducing room temperature swing and waking up to a warmer house after an overnight fire.

 

[KennyK]

Thanks for all your responses Begreen. In regards to what you wrote here:

The Ideal Steel might work if clearances pass muster. It may be idling during milder weather. Getting heat circulating out of the dining room is the issue. How large are the openings to the kitchen and to the stairwell?

View attachment 223037

I'd love to know your thoughts on my response here regarding the openings to the kitchen and stairwell (including pics):

The opening to the kitchen is 31"x79", the opening from the dining room (which with the stove we've converted to a living room) to the stairwell is 31"x79.5". The opening from the dining room to the living room is 59"x84.5", and the opening from the living room to the stairwell is 31"x79.5". I've attached some pics here. I also forgot to mention I have ceiling fans in both the dining and living rooms.

When I spoke with Woodstock about meeting the Ideal Steel clearances without tearing out my mantel they said pulling the stove out to have 18 inches of horizontal double walled pipe to the T (I think that would be 18 horizontal run plus the 4.5" of flue collar that the Ideal Steel has) would be fine, meet clearances and not poorly impact the draft with my chimney height. On a separate but related note, that does put the stove as taking up a decent amount of floor space in the room (especially when considering how much I will need to extend the hearth).

One thing I couldn't tell on the Explorer was the clearance to 1" surround, but maybe I could pull it out a bit with double walled horizontal pipe to get around that if it were an issue.

As always, your input is much appreciated!
View attachment 223038 View attachment 223039 View attachment 223040 View attachment 223041

Also, can you clarify what it means to have the stove "idling" during milder weather?

Regarding this:

OTOH photog just installed a PH and has to keep a couple windows cracked open to avoid overheating the house. There is a point where having too much heat is not efficient. The question is, is it more efficient to have a stove sized for 90% of the heating requirements and to run the central heat for the remaining 10% (below zero days) or is it more efficient to have a stove that is 110% over capacity to cover those 10% below zero days, but requiring opening windows on the above freezing days?

This makes sense to me, however my situation is that, according to Woodstock, the stove is the perfect size for my house, they are just concerned with the stove room getting too hot. They did recognize that they can't be certain because airflow is different in every house. One of the things that I mentioned here, as it might be information about the airflow in my house, is whatever the temp of my stove room, the upstairs back bedroom is 6 degrees cooler (this has been surprisingly consistent). So, with no other heat source than the wood stove, if the stove room is at 71, the upstairs back bedroom is at 65, stove room is 68, upstairs back bedroom is at 62. This would say to me, in a common sense yet pretty un-scientific way, that heat is flowing out of the stove room into other parts of the house in a decent and consistent manner. Now, if this carried over to the stove room being 84 and the upstairs being 78, my wife would be quite happy! (Did I even mention that she grew up 670 miles from the equator and is now living in Boston, which is freezing for half the year). The Woodstock person suggested the Fireview, but was clear that it would not heat my whole house. Here below is what the person from Woodstock wrote me regarding the Ideal Steel. I value their opinion, but not necessarily more than (or even as much) as the incredibly educated, informed and experienced crew here! I'd love second (and third, fourth...) opinions here.

From Woodstock:

"Yes, everyone here feels the stove is too large for the room. If you understand this stove has a rating of 65,000 btu's, you'll understand it is a hot stove. If you're okay with the room being above 85 degrees, then it's fine. The ceilings are about average at 9 feet, and fans do help, but we feel it is a large stove for that room. However, thus said, you know the airflow better for your home than we do. If you think that you can keep the stove at a mid-burn, then it may work. You will certainly be able to heat the entire house with the Ideal Steel."

 

[Zack R]

It sounds like the Woodstock folks are right on the money. Although that stove makes sense for your overall house size and climate the issue will be overheating in the stove room.

No matter what stove you go with this will be an issue to some extent. To get heat throughout the house the stove room will be hotter than the others. I find it comfortable at 73-75F in the stove room but anything beyond that is too hot for me personally.

One thing I would recommend is a fan on the floor pointed toward the stove from a nearby room. Blowing cold air toward the stove is more effective than blowing warm air away from it. I picked up a Honeywell HY-280 QuietSet Whole Room Tower Fan and its done a great job so far. I also run the furnace fan sometimes to move air around. You will lose some heat with the furnace fan (warming the ductwork) but if the stove room is too hot its a good way to even things out.

 

[begreen]

I agree, a fireview or keystone would work out fine, if a sideloading stove is ok for that location. My concern would be the side door clearance requirements to the mantel wood. That would need to be checked.

 

[KennyK]

I agree, a fireview or keystone would work out fine, if a sideloading stove is ok for that location. My concern would be the side door clearance requirements to the mantel wood. That would need to be checked.

Thanks. Do you think the Ideal Steel is a bad decision being too big for the room?

 

[begreen]

Thanks. Do you think the Ideal Steel is a bad decision being too big for the room?

I've never run one personally, but on paper the IS looks too large. That said you have several variables including house design, house insulation and evidently a high heat tolerance that might work ok for you. The larger room division openings also work in your favor.

With the F100, if you have the stove room at 71F, what is the temp in the living room and in the kitchen? What is the hottest you've had the dining room up to?

Looking at the floorplan it might be possible to assist a good convection loop that helps moderate the dining room temperature. This would require cutting a fire dampered vent from the kitchen ceiling into the end of the 2nd floor hallway.

 

[Woody Stover]

I've never run one personally, but on paper the IS looks too large. That said you have several variables including house design, house insulation and evidently a high heat tolerance that might work ok for you. The larger room division openings also work in your favor.

It appears to me that the warm air will move out of the stove room pretty well, and you can always experiment with a small fan on the floor in various locations to see what works best. When you kick the Woodstock down to a cat-only burn, the heat output will drop quite a bit, as opposed to running flame in the box and having the secondary cranking. And with the 1890 house you will probably be glad to have the top-end output when it's cold outside. If they told you that the stove was sized about right for the house, I would run with that.

Looking at the floorplan it might be possible to assist a good convection loop that helps moderate the dining room temperature. This would require cutting a fire dampered vent from the kitchen ceiling into the end of the 2nd floor hallway.

Bear in mind that to meet code, the vent needs to be fused so that it will close in the event of a house fire, and slow the spread of the fire.

 

[Highbeam]

I would put in the IS. You already have a stove that’s too small. My house is smaller than yours and I run a 2.85 cf cat stove in a mild climate. The IS reportedly can be burned at very low output. The other Woodstock stoves might be nice if you can deal with the side door problems.

Yep IS.

 

[Ashful]

Isn’t the Ideal Steel, like any Woodstock product, an almost-entirely radiant heater? That would be a poor choice for a broken layout, esp. when you want to move heat upstairs.

Radiant heating only warms objects with a direct line of sight to the stove. Those objects, in turn, re-radiate and eventually spread the heat throughout the house. But if you are trying to heat far-away isolated spaces, a convective stove is going to be much more efficient and evenly spread. This completely removes Woodstock from consideration, IMO.

BK 30’s are great radiant heaters, but top vent only, so they’re out.

The Jotul F50 and F55 (I believe) are cast clad steel boxes with convective designs, and both do top or rear flue. Right, begreen?

A cat stove would be more ideal, trying to heat a large space from a small space, without overheating that space. But I don’t know any highly-convective rear-exit cat stoves on the market today.

I’d favor going to small, and still running central heat to keep the house balanced, rather than going too large and always having an overheated stove room.

 

[JA600L]

I think you are safe with the Ideal Steel. You can dampen it down enough to get a very long consistent burn and not overheat that area. If you crank the stove though it will certainly run you out of there. It has as good a chance or better than any other stove in my opinion. It has radiant and convective properties to it. They call everything radiant but it has convective channels on the side legs.

 

[kennyp2339]

I like the Woodstock ideal steel but it would have some draw backs if installed in the current fire place, in order to meet the clearances of the mantle, the stove would have to be the short leg kit, and installed totally outside the current fireplace foot print. A short leg kit would be needed because you need to have the proper horizontal pitch of your black pipe (double wall needed due to same clearance issues) so it can "drain" any liquid creosote back into the stove in the event that it forms.
The mantle has me nervous because you don't wanna lose it, its probably a hand crafted piece using old growth wood and that simply cant be replaced, the sides of the stove would need the 19" on either side of clearance, so the unit would have to be installed further out into the room to clear the lowest portion of the mantles vertical columns, the top piece of the mantle would be fine since there would be a rear heat shield and the stove would be further into the room.
The hearth would have to be extend out, 16" past the loading door and 6" on the sides, it would need a K factor of .41 so 2 layers of cement board then a tile of choice, or a layer of classic brick which is common for New England.
As far as heat output, you'll be fine, the stove is a radiant stove, that has the choice of running lower in cat mode or full bore with both the cat and secondary re-burn tubes at up to 110,000 btu's an hour, for an old leaky house you may want to have that kind of fire power.
Heat transfer to the second floor seems a little more tricky, you may want to invest in a thru wall vent fan and install near the ceiling with the exhaust pointed at the stair way so more heat can go up the stairs, those fans are fairly quiet and can have multiple adjustable settings.
As far as the other stoves in the line up, I'm not to thrilled with them since there outputs are pretty high and to maintain a clean burn you would have to burn them pretty hot, so either you would chase the heat curve by loading smaller loads with shorter burn times to keep a lower consistent temp or load it up and open a window.