Lookin' good! I like that 15º Heat Fab flex connector elbow. They also make them in 30º. That's a good solution for some installations.
Hello all, halfway done with PE insert install w/ pics & Question: Insulating fireplace?
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Beau, that is one nice looking stove! And hats off to your installer.
I've been running my insert (Jotul Rockland) for just over a week with Roxul laying directly on top of the steel, just the top. I have an insulated block off plate at the stove side already, but between the top of the stove and that plate there was something like 6-8" of air gap. One day when the house couldn't climb past 67F I pulled off the surround and watched the house climb to 69 degrees within an hour.
I appreciate the aesthetics of the surround, and also the squirrel cage blowers are protected with it on and I've got a young'n at home. So I said what the heck, and cut out 4 pieces of Roxul to match the shape of the fireplace directly above the insert. With the insert, this piece is just the "air chamber" for where the blower air comes out, so I don't think it would cause the stove to overheat, but certainly should keep it "warmer" and more importantly force that hot air out given I've occupied that space.
I have not overfired the stove yet, but am getting used to the new operating conditions. From what I've witnessed, much quicker to warm up to temp, much faster secondary ignition, and what appears to be shorter secondary burn time. I don't quite understand the last piece yet, could be wood, draft, dunno. It's been rather warm in MA the past week, so I don't need to load the stove to its capacity.
What does happen now, that rarely happened in the past, is I get nice secondary action in the first hour of a cold stove burn and the stove cruises at 500-550F until the later stages of coaling, where typically it would be <400F.
I've been running my insert (Jotul Rockland) for just over a week with Roxul laying directly on top of the steel, just the top. I have an insulated block off plate at the stove side already, but between the top of the stove and that plate there was something like 6-8" of air gap. One day when the house couldn't climb past 67F I pulled off the surround and watched the house climb to 69 degrees within an hour.
I appreciate the aesthetics of the surround, and also the squirrel cage blowers are protected with it on and I've got a young'n at home. So I said what the heck, and cut out 4 pieces of Roxul to match the shape of the fireplace directly above the insert. With the insert, this piece is just the "air chamber" for where the blower air comes out, so I don't think it would cause the stove to overheat, but certainly should keep it "warmer" and more importantly force that hot air out given I've occupied that space.
I have not overfired the stove yet, but am getting used to the new operating conditions. From what I've witnessed, much quicker to warm up to temp, much faster secondary ignition, and what appears to be shorter secondary burn time. I don't quite understand the last piece yet, could be wood, draft, dunno. It's been rather warm in MA the past week, so I don't need to load the stove to its capacity.
What does happen now, that rarely happened in the past, is I get nice secondary action in the first hour of a cold stove burn and the stove cruises at 500-550F until the later stages of coaling, where typically it would be <400F.
Thanks!
Cnice, that's very interesting actually. The problem with me doing this is that I have no prior operating point from which to make a comparison. So I wonder if I'll find similar operation to yours.
I too was thinking about laying a sheet of Roxul on top of that air chamber, but I figured that eventually the stove will heat up this airspace in the fireplace and eventually come up to temp.
I wonder if your secondaries are going out earlier because you've had to throttle the intake back a bit? Or if like you said it's a fuel situation (less fuel =- warm days, or bad fuel)?
I'll have to observe mine and see whats going on.
So you think 550 degrees is a good place to be at temperature wise? I'm not sure what I'll see I'm hoping to get my stove to pass inspection in a couple of minutes here actually. It's not particularly cold today so we'll see if I'll even try to burn.
Cnice, that's very interesting actually. The problem with me doing this is that I have no prior operating point from which to make a comparison. So I wonder if I'll find similar operation to yours.
I too was thinking about laying a sheet of Roxul on top of that air chamber, but I figured that eventually the stove will heat up this airspace in the fireplace and eventually come up to temp.
I wonder if your secondaries are going out earlier because you've had to throttle the intake back a bit? Or if like you said it's a fuel situation (less fuel =- warm days, or bad fuel)?
I'll have to observe mine and see whats going on.
So you think 550 degrees is a good place to be at temperature wise? I'm not sure what I'll see I'm hoping to get my stove to pass inspection in a couple of minutes here actually. It's not particularly cold today so we'll see if I'll even try to burn.
I can't control the secondary air, so I'm either dialing back the air sooner (insert warms up much faster) and it is too soon, or something else.
For my stove, I see 700F on a full load, peak burn temps but with warmer days, cruising at 550F keeps the house around 70F with ease and I'll need to let the firebox drop to 250F or lower before re-load or we'll have to crack a window or two. You'll figure it out, seems like you know there will be a learning curve with the new stove/ house/ temps.
For my stove, I see 700F on a full load, peak burn temps but with warmer days, cruising at 550F keeps the house around 70F with ease and I'll need to let the firebox drop to 250F or lower before re-load or we'll have to crack a window or two. You'll figure it out, seems like you know there will be a learning curve with the new stove/ house/ temps.
^ Good points.
Well I got the installation inspected today and was able to fire up my stove for the first time. JP Chimney here in the Hudson Valley (NY) did a great job.
There are some issues / learning curves, just due to my home and normal operation.
#1 the oils on the liner and paint on the stove give me a terrible headache BLEH. I wonder how long that'll last, so hazey downstairs in my house it's nasty. Hehe *COUGH*
I do have a terrible vacuum issue in the basement, or "negative draft, or negative pressure" as some people call it. I can tell because of the cold air that falls out of the box even with it shut before I got to burn it. I'm pretty sure it's an issue with losing too much heat out of the attic, and I get a pretty epic stack effect.
First burn I LITERALLY filledl the entire house with smoke. Nothing I could do. Leaving the door open was the only way to keep it lit to even BEGIN to burn, and closing it which stopped the smoke (too late) cause cause the paper to burn like embers... So I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do during cold starts to be honest. I tried pre-heating the flue with some Charcoal lighter cubes, I'm pretty sure it did nothing. Yipes!
So I kept adding some more wood 2 up to 3 small splits once it burned down. It seemed to go through the wood quickly, and provided an ok amount of heat but the box stayed cold, real cold. The flue temp was like UP to 300, and I could lay my hands on the stove for as long as I wante. Inside though the temps were like anywhere from 500-800 degrees according to IR gun (SUPER handy) It's accurate to +- 2 degrees.
And that was with the air control never coming OFF of start. Sometimes I had to crack the door open just to get some flames going again.
All of the same wood... This time I decided I'll just throw 4 larger splits into the box, pretty much like 3/4 box filled since I had some blocks of wood coals at the bottom preventing me from seating the wood.
Left it on start. Watched it sort of flicker and burn, like a regular old fire, very tame. : |
Left it for like 30 minutes, came back... HOLY CRAP, SECONDARIES? The secondary box was glowing orange, like I think it should be this is obviously the INSIDE of the stove where the tops of the flames were, the outside part of the stove got to around 550 this time. Flue itself outside temp was like 380 IIRC?
But this time I could throttle the thing WAAAAYYYY back, and it still burned. IN fact I pretty much turned it all the way down and at least fo rthe first 5 minutes it still burned with nearly all secondaries going. Until the box started to cool off, and lost some draft energy, then I had to throttle it back up again to maintain.
Here is the cool thing though. I think with my insulation behind the stove, even when I could touch the stove with my bare hands (not the glass) it still blew out nice warm air! Definitely good for say 64-65 degrees over time (thats warm for me) right now it's probably 70 downstairs, it hasn't seen 70 down there since my 95 degree summer days with 140% humidity
So question. Is it OK for the secondary cassette (box) to be glowing orange as long as nothing else is? Other parts of the stove again were no more than 500-550 and this is right at the steel collar where all of the heat comes out of the stove.
Well I got the installation inspected today and was able to fire up my stove for the first time. JP Chimney here in the Hudson Valley (NY) did a great job.
There are some issues / learning curves, just due to my home and normal operation.
#1 the oils on the liner and paint on the stove give me a terrible headache BLEH. I wonder how long that'll last, so hazey downstairs in my house it's nasty. Hehe *COUGH*
I do have a terrible vacuum issue in the basement, or "negative draft, or negative pressure" as some people call it. I can tell because of the cold air that falls out of the box even with it shut before I got to burn it. I'm pretty sure it's an issue with losing too much heat out of the attic, and I get a pretty epic stack effect.
First burn I LITERALLY filledl the entire house with smoke. Nothing I could do. Leaving the door open was the only way to keep it lit to even BEGIN to burn, and closing it which stopped the smoke (too late) cause cause the paper to burn like embers... So I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do during cold starts to be honest. I tried pre-heating the flue with some Charcoal lighter cubes, I'm pretty sure it did nothing. Yipes!
So I kept adding some more wood 2 up to 3 small splits once it burned down. It seemed to go through the wood quickly, and provided an ok amount of heat but the box stayed cold, real cold. The flue temp was like UP to 300, and I could lay my hands on the stove for as long as I wante. Inside though the temps were like anywhere from 500-800 degrees according to IR gun (SUPER handy) It's accurate to +- 2 degrees.
And that was with the air control never coming OFF of start. Sometimes I had to crack the door open just to get some flames going again.
All of the same wood... This time I decided I'll just throw 4 larger splits into the box, pretty much like 3/4 box filled since I had some blocks of wood coals at the bottom preventing me from seating the wood.
Left it on start. Watched it sort of flicker and burn, like a regular old fire, very tame. : |
Left it for like 30 minutes, came back... HOLY CRAP, SECONDARIES? The secondary box was glowing orange, like I think it should be this is obviously the INSIDE of the stove where the tops of the flames were, the outside part of the stove got to around 550 this time. Flue itself outside temp was like 380 IIRC?
But this time I could throttle the thing WAAAAYYYY back, and it still burned. IN fact I pretty much turned it all the way down and at least fo rthe first 5 minutes it still burned with nearly all secondaries going. Until the box started to cool off, and lost some draft energy, then I had to throttle it back up again to maintain.
Here is the cool thing though. I think with my insulation behind the stove, even when I could touch the stove with my bare hands (not the glass) it still blew out nice warm air! Definitely good for say 64-65 degrees over time (thats warm for me) right now it's probably 70 downstairs, it hasn't seen 70 down there since my 95 degree summer days with 140% humidity
So question. Is it OK for the secondary cassette (box) to be glowing orange as long as nothing else is? Other parts of the stove again were no more than 500-550 and this is right at the steel collar where all of the heat comes out of the stove.
DON'T LEAVE THE STOVE UNATTENDED at startup. Set a timer and carry it with you. You should be checking a starting up fire every 5 or 10 minutes.
^ haha. That was our work light, despite the pictures it's very dark over there and we just threw it in there to get it out of the way, it happen to show up as a deep blue on the camera so I took a picture. I really took that pic for an iterative step in the process, but I thought it looked neat in the meantime.
Begree, yes I agree, I just put 3 more splits on to get some more heat until 2 or 3 AM.
But I just need to know if it's ok to get that secondary cartridge glowing. It seems to want to glow. The actual stove of course is not glowing just the metal plate above all of the flames. The glass will get around 750-800. The door frame around 360. Top of the stove where all of the heat converges and where the exhaust comes out I was able to get to about 650 at peak temp, I was able to drive it back to a steady 450-ish.
Begree, yes I agree, I just put 3 more splits on to get some more heat until 2 or 3 AM.
But I just need to know if it's ok to get that secondary cartridge glowing. It seems to want to glow. The actual stove of course is not glowing just the metal plate above all of the flames. The glass will get around 750-800. The door frame around 360. Top of the stove where all of the heat converges and where the exhaust comes out I was able to get to about 650 at peak temp, I was able to drive it back to a steady 450-ish.
wjb111
Member
Beau,
Very nice and I like your thinking for the insulation around & above the insert. Well done.
Where did you get you 15 degree elbow? I'm in need of a 30 degree.
Thanks,
Very nice and I like your thinking for the insulation around & above the insert. Well done.
Where did you get you 15 degree elbow? I'm in need of a 30 degree.
Thanks,
Ah ,,, the learning curve. I 2nd BG - do not leave the stove with the door ajar, same with door closed and air completely open - carry a timer. With the chimney now warmed you will notice improved performance , outside weather also will affect the performance.
And thanks for the pictures and cool installation/insulation.
The odors will be around for a while, each time you reach a higher temp both stove and chimney you will probably be smelling a little nasties.
And thanks for the pictures and cool installation/insulation.
The odors will be around for a while, each time you reach a higher temp both stove and chimney you will probably be smelling a little nasties.
Yeah honestly the smells were so bad for so long If it doesn't improve I'd have to ditch the stove. I'm sensitive to the smell of wood or burn off, and I was having some chest discomfort and palpitations. I know that sounds bad but i'm just sensitive to any kind of stimulant really, or any medication actually. I usually take 1 advil to fix anything 
But the problem lies in when I run low on fuel or when the stove is cold... I was woken up at 2:10 am, everything smelled like wood smoke to me. I couldn't see any smokey haze but I was pretty sure I could smell it. Mind you I was totally loaded up with weird smells from downstairs and everything so I couldn't tell if it was just in my sinus or if I was breathing in something new. Went downstairs still had some flames going on, but very little, just had some baseball sized nuggets glowing. Knowing that as the box cooled down my draft would eventually fail due to my REALLY crapp draft (bad house) I turned up the air control.
Sure enough this morning I had golf ball sized charcoal that never completely burned up because I don't get enough draft and it snuffed itself out.
Right now I have a 52 degree room with a fan on medium and two windows open trying to get rid of residual smell because it makes me feel kinda funny when I go in there. It did not bother my wife, and my brother in law could smell a wood fire, but I DON'T want any odor whatsoever unless its just for 15 or 20 minutes after I open my door to add wood or something.
I think my windows are too leaky upstairs and i get a crazy stack effect..
For instance. In my office upstairs it's probably 250 sq/ft, I use an electric heater just for this one room while I'm at the house working from home so I don't need heat elsewhere in the place like most people who don't work from home.
Anyways, if the office is nice and toasty 70 or so, I crack the door open, and the door will open itself, pretty strongly. If the room is cool though it will not open the door on it's own.
I noticed this the other day, and it's pretty strong. So I'm wondering if my Epic stack effect is a big cause?
But the problem lies in when I run low on fuel or when the stove is cold... I was woken up at 2:10 am, everything smelled like wood smoke to me. I couldn't see any smokey haze but I was pretty sure I could smell it. Mind you I was totally loaded up with weird smells from downstairs and everything so I couldn't tell if it was just in my sinus or if I was breathing in something new. Went downstairs still had some flames going on, but very little, just had some baseball sized nuggets glowing. Knowing that as the box cooled down my draft would eventually fail due to my REALLY crapp draft (bad house) I turned up the air control.
Sure enough this morning I had golf ball sized charcoal that never completely burned up because I don't get enough draft and it snuffed itself out.
Right now I have a 52 degree room with a fan on medium and two windows open trying to get rid of residual smell because it makes me feel kinda funny when I go in there. It did not bother my wife, and my brother in law could smell a wood fire, but I DON'T want any odor whatsoever unless its just for 15 or 20 minutes after I open my door to add wood or something.
I think my windows are too leaky upstairs and i get a crazy stack effect..
For instance. In my office upstairs it's probably 250 sq/ft, I use an electric heater just for this one room while I'm at the house working from home so I don't need heat elsewhere in the place like most people who don't work from home.
Anyways, if the office is nice and toasty 70 or so, I crack the door open, and the door will open itself, pretty strongly. If the room is cool though it will not open the door on it's own.
I noticed this the other day, and it's pretty strong. So I'm wondering if my Epic stack effect is a big cause?
Congrats Beau on the new stove!
I just installed the same one this November. I am very pleased with it so far.
A few thoughts: Is your attic door insulated? I built an insulated box for mine out of 2" thick pink foam. It makes a big difference on slowing down heat loss.
If you have drafty windows, try putting plastic over them, see what effect that has.
I have almost the exact same fireplace set up. PE sells a "large surround" which will cover up your gap. Perhaps your dealer will exchange it for you. That's the route I took.
I find that when my flue gets cold (no fire for more than 24hrs) I have issues with down draft. The best trick I found is to open a window in the basement and open the door on the stove. Wait 5 minutes for the pressure to equalize. Set up your wood load. Use newspaper to heat the flue as quickly as possible. This should help the draft issue. It worked for me anyways.
One question to everyone: does insulating the firebrick in the old fireplace make a big difference?
Stay warm!
I just installed the same one this November. I am very pleased with it so far.
A few thoughts: Is your attic door insulated? I built an insulated box for mine out of 2" thick pink foam. It makes a big difference on slowing down heat loss.
If you have drafty windows, try putting plastic over them, see what effect that has.
I have almost the exact same fireplace set up. PE sells a "large surround" which will cover up your gap. Perhaps your dealer will exchange it for you. That's the route I took.
I find that when my flue gets cold (no fire for more than 24hrs) I have issues with down draft. The best trick I found is to open a window in the basement and open the door on the stove. Wait 5 minutes for the pressure to equalize. Set up your wood load. Use newspaper to heat the flue as quickly as possible. This should help the draft issue. It worked for me anyways.
One question to everyone: does insulating the firebrick in the old fireplace make a big difference?
Stay warm!
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