Hearthstone/Heritage Soap Stone Models - 1,000 Sq Foot, Zone 6 Climate

[begreen]

A modern hybrid soapstone stove from Hearthstone can actually achieve similar combustion efficiency as a BK but its usable operating range is narrower. It can't go quite as low and slow as a BK, and it can't go as high either, but when compared across the usable range it's a perfectly good heating appliance.

Sharing our experiences is great, but lets make sure we understand the context. An old soapstone design with likely a relatively poor combustion efficiency, compared to a EPA 2020 certified stove (or an older one that would meet the requirements, of which, many old BK stoves do) may be academically interesting but is not representative of some ones current stove buying decision, which is in a world of options where all material types can be mated to a good combustion process.

A Hearthstone Mansfield has a notably higher top-end BTU output than the thermostatically limited BK equivalent.
FWIW, experience has shown me that a castiron jacketed stove offers the best of both worlds. Soapstone like heat, but steel stove strength and output.

 

[nemohoes]

The characteristics of a wood burning appliances come from a combination of design, technology, and materials working together to produce a particular result. A material, in and of itself, doesn't make a better or worse stove. If you took a steel stove design, and replaced the steel with soapstone, the stove would almost certainly be worse for it as the rest of the stove was designed around the characteristics of the steel.

I'm not sure what the specifics are surrounding "HighBeams" experience with a soapstone stove is, but it sounds to me like he went from a manual operated non-cat burning experience to a catalytic burning experience with automatic feedback air control and is conflating the difference in experience between these stoves to be almost entirely due to the material they were made from, rather than the significant differences in burning technology employed. I would not read too much into that. The marketing wank from hearthstone can be misleading like the marketing wank from any product. Blaze King could certainly deploy their catalytic burning strategy to a soapstone stove and produce very good results as well.

Soapstone is less thermally conductive, but in many applications, the soapstone, is both the firebrick and the stove jacket at the same time, so the thermal conduction to the surface of the stove is more spread out and starts lower in the box. This has ups and downs. Lower peak surface temps combined with less radiation properties means that the heat from the soapstone stove is indeed "softer" feeling. It's not the kind of heat you feel radiating across the room or through walls, and the top of a hearthstone soapstone stove generally runs a bit too cool for cooking/simmering, but the stove is still going to put about the same thermal energy into the house but in a different way.

Many materials can be leveraged to produce a thermally efficient stove, but some materials are better suited to achieving higher peak thermal output for a given size stove. I would venture to say that in general, an "oversized" hearthstone soapstone stove, is apt to be more forgiving with regard to the "chase you out of the room" effect than a traditional steel stove. A steel stove with enough thermal mass could achieve a similar result, but in practice, most steel stoves weigh about half of what a similar size soapstone stove weighs, so they will heat up fast and hit a higher peak-thermal output, and then cool down more rapidly. With that said, a very well designed catalytic steel stove can just burn the wood slower and spread out the heat from a burn cycle in a manner that is functionally similar to the behavior of a soapstone stove but achieved through different means. These modern Hearthstone Hybrid stoves can lean into the advantages of catalytic stoves for extended burn cycles a bit, while also spreading out the thermal shock of a burn cycle over time with big thermal mass. The cat on these hybrid hearthstone stoves is less "potent" than the cats found on catalyst optimized stoves like those from Blaze King, so these stoves aren't intended to be used as wood-gasifiers the way a BK can.

There's a long list of EPA tested stoves achieving high efficiency made from all sorts of material combinations. Proving that material choice in and of itself is not a make-it-or-break-it issue. A fair number of stoves in the top 20 most efficient stoves tested are made from soapstone+cast-iron. Many are also made from steel...

Note that nearly ALL steel stoves have a fire-brick lined burning box. The firebrick is there to INSULATE the fire from the excessive thermal conductivity of bare steel. Trying to burn a fire in a bare-steel box is actually difficult because the steel will try to pull too much heat off the coals, requiring much higher burn rates to keep the fire from collapsing. If steel were the perfect stove material, we wouldn't be using in conjunction with firebrick to "fix" it. The complete working system is what matters.

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If you like the look of soapstone, and understand what behaviors to expect from a soapstone stove I see no reason it couldn't serve you well, especially a modern design with a catalyst. I'm perfectly happy with ours.

Is the basement of your home heated? Finished? Does the house have a traditional forced air HVAC unit with a central blower that can be used to help move heat around the home, and potentially, the basement as well? A warm basement has some advantages... keeps moisture levels under control, keeps pipes from freezing, and makes your floors warmer (more comfortable for feet!).

If we're talking about heating 1000sq foot, single level, with modern/new windows and 2x6 or thicker exterior walls with good sheeting/wrap/insulation in zone 6, then the Castleton or similar or smaller sized cat/hybrid stove should work very well, to the point of being a bit overkill on many days.
Alternates:
Hearthstone Green Mountain 60 / Hipster 20
Lopi Rockport Hybrid-Fyre
BK Ashford AF20.2/ Chinook CK20.2 / Sirocco SC20.2
Kuma Aspen LE / Tamarack LE/ Aberdeen LE
Vermont Castings Dauntless Flexburn Catalytic Model

If we're talking about heating 1000sq foot, + partially heating a basement, older windows, drafty doors, 2x4 construction, with mediocre insulation/wrap in zone 6, then I would go for the Mansfield or something in that 2.5-3 cubic foot range. I burn ponderosa in my Mansfield. If I put a few large diameter splits/rounds in there, let it get up to temp, then choke it way down to the lowest recommended burn rates, it will extend that burn cycle out to at least 10-12 hours or so, with a still-warm stove and coals ready to be stirred up for another fuel load.

You may be able to estimate your heating demands based on current furnace utilization. If you have or can install a logging thermostat, then you can generate some data that tells you your BTU per day utilization, then figure out a BTU/hr requirement to replicate the functionality with wood. Keep in mind that a wood burner set up to run low and slow over many hours may only put off about 10K BTU/hr on average.

For an alcove install I would skip the Heritage as it comes with a side-load-door that won't be very usable in the alcove, and more importantly, is just more moving parts and seals to fail.

Regardless of the model selected I recommend against the ash-pan option for any stove if there is an option to opt out. It's yet another source of potential air-leaks, and another point of maintenance/failures for the stove. I prefer a dedicated ash-vac for dealing with ash. It sucks it all into a metal can through a metal hose, and filters the ash through first a very fine can filter then an even finer pleated hepa filter. I wait for a warm spell in the weather and try to skip a couple nights of burning before vacuuming.

I will be putting in new windows, a new slider door, and new front door so that will help with the draftiness, if these are truly energy-efficient . I may go further with putting new insulation in the walls.

When I say 1,000 square foot, that is only the surface level (where the stove will be located), with another 1,000 square feet in the basement. Basement is finished. The house has 2x6 construction to boot. The house does have traditional forced air, so ideally, I'd leverage that or a fan to help circulate the colder air from the basement and warmed air on the ground level.

I agree with choosing a front door for the alcove install, side door just seems like a PITA if my clearance isn't generous.

I spoke with a saleslady from Woodstock who roughly recommended the Survival hybrid, however, she's a month into her job and we asked her to consult with someone who has been working at Woodstock's for longer for another opinion. She was a pleasure to talk to and very nice. However, I think the problem is with newer stove salesmen (both at local stores and this example) is they hear my square footage, look at the brochure, and pontificate (maybe not so much) that "1000 square foot house = 1000 square foot recommended stove." Which I would think if I was new, but each house, user, and region has more nuance. My region gets cold, down to the single digits is not uncommon. I will be using this as the sole heat source and burn from October to April, weather permitting. I don't want to be getting a stove that requires me to be constantly refilling to heat my home up since the firebox is too small. I want room to fill it up to the max or capacity, choke that sucker down, and reap the benefit of consistent heat. I am not sure if that's feasible, with my house and a larger stove (correct me if I am wrong here. You won't hurt my feelings).

Good tip on the ash-pan, I can see that as another part that can leak air, especially if the ashes aren't going to be a common clean up activity for me as I have read with cat stoves.

 

[mdocod]

A Hearthstone Mansfield has a notably higher top-end BTU output than the thermostatically limited BK equivalent.
FWIW, experience has shown me that a castiron jacketed stove offers the best of both worlds. Soapstone like heat, but steel stove strength and output.

According to the EPA tests, the Princess 32 and Mansfield 8013 are within 2% of eachother on the high output figures.

The Princess has the advantage of being able to be run at about 40% lower lows.

Yea a cast-jacketed box would probably be very good.

 

[nemohoes]

I think that you and I have similar wants for a stove and somewhat similar conditions/heating needs. The most important being correct output for the space 24/7. Mine are:
1. ability to lower output very low
2. enough output to be the sole heat source
3. long burn times (enough to sleep!)
4. reliability/quality
5. ease of maintenance/use
6. 2023- 30% tax credit eligible
7. affordable
8. match decor/aesthetics

My post is 'Help size my future BK' in the BK forum, since the BK's seem to have the most models of widest range of output, especially the low end. I was initially attracted to some non-cat stoves (Pleasant Hearth, Quad) that met the tax credit, but realized (with the help of the forum contributors here-thanks!) that they would not meet my long, low output needs.

you are right, we want the same thing. Maybe I should give BK another look and start trying to find a stove that is more functional than aesthetically pleasing.

 

[mdocod]

I will be putting in new windows, a new slider door, and new front door so that will help with the draftiness, if these are truly energy-efficient . I may go further with putting new insulation in the walls.

When I say 1,000 square foot, that is only the surface level (where the stove will be located), with another 1,000 square feet in the basement. Basement is finished. The house has 2x6 construction to boot. The house does have traditional forced air, so ideally, I'd leverage that or a fan to help circulate the colder air from the basement and warmed air on the ground level.

I agree with choosing a front door for the alcove install, side door just seems like a PITA if my clearance isn't generous.

I spoke with a saleslady from Woodstock who roughly recommended the Survival hybrid, however, she's a month into her job and we asked her to consult with someone who has been working at Woodstock's for longer for another opinion. She was a pleasure to talk to and very nice. However, I think the problem is with newer stove salesmen (both at local stores and this example) is they hear my square footage, look at the brochure, and pontificate (maybe not so much) that "1000 square foot house = 1000 square foot recommended stove." Which I would think if I was new, but each house, user, and region has more nuance. My region gets cold, down to the single digits is not uncommon. I will be using this as the sole heat source and burn from October to April, weather permitting. I don't want to be getting a stove that requires me to be constantly refilling to heat my home up since the firebox is too small. I want room to fill it up to the max or capacity, choke that sucker down, and reap the benefit of consistent heat. I am not sure if that's feasible, with my house and a larger stove (correct me if I am wrong here. You won't hurt my feelings).

Good tip on the ash-pan, I can see that as another part that can leak air, especially if the ashes aren't going to be a common clean up activity for me as I have read with cat stoves.

You're heating a 2000sq foot home for all intents and purposes. With good insulation/windows and 2X6 exterior wood heating should be fairly pragmatic in that home. A spot check of insulation in the top of the walls is warranted if the home is older, and possible adding a "top-up" fill of loose-fill wool or similar type insulation to close any gaps in insulation that have opened up at the top of walls. Older homes tended to only have ~8" of insulation in the attic, which often compresses down to 4-6" over the years, and gets disheveled by various things over the years. Modern code calls for a lot more. I think we have ~16-18" of loose fill wool in most of our attic.

~1 cubic foot per ~1000sq ft of home is the "standard" we see for stove sizing recommendations, but that is assuming a fairly fast burn rate required for clean combustion in non-cat stoves. Catalytic stoves open up a wider burning range.

Blaze King stoves are very popular among folks who want to do remarkably long burn cycles. The burn strategy you are describing sounds like Blaze King territory. These are serious heating appliances designed to overcome the pitfalls of wood heating with a clever automated air control mechanism. Some people will put the giant 4 cubic foot Blaze King King KE40 in a small to medium home, and load it once every 24-36 hours, operating it like a wood gasifier producing a low steady ~12K BTU/hr rate for 3X longer than many smaller stoves could ever dream of. This might be a bit bigger than you want and it requires a less common and more expensive 8" chimney system, but it's something to consider... The Princess PE32 can be dialed down to run ~10K BTU/hr rate and will also run for a long time at this rate, especially if you have some dense wood. This is a more practical stove to install as well in terms of weight/size and it takes a common 6" flue.

As for soapstone options, the Mansfield 8013 is the only one I am aware of that is a standard/simple front load design that can do reasonable clearances and reasonable burn cycle durations. I get up to ~8-12 hours on softwood, I suspect it could do 16-20 on hardwood, for comparison the BK PE32 could probably pull off 24 hour burn cycles.

I suspect that the smaller Castleton would be be more of a 5-8 hour burn cycle, but with similar minimum heat output compared to the Mansfield. Perhaps not what you're looking for.

Plenty of folks on here have concerns about the Hearthstone soapstone products. Many of those concerns are valid, and were concerns that I weighed against the beauty of soapstone in our house. You'll have to weigh the risk/reward there as well. There are lots of nuanced tradeoffs....

 

[begreen]

When I say 1,000 square foot, that is only the surface level (where the stove will be located), with another 1,000 square feet in the basement. Basement is finished. The house has 2x6 construction to boot. The house does have traditional forced air, so ideally, I'd leverage that or a fan to help circulate the colder air from the basement and warmed air on the ground level.

You can try this, but it's often the case that this approach doesn't work well. Insulating the whole system, supplies, returns, and the air-handler can help. What is the furnace's output BTUs? That will help with figuring out the stove sizing.

 

[rudysmallfry]

I have an older non-cat Heritage. It's in my finished basement, at least the first 800sq ft of it. The rest is an unheated drafty garage separated by a flimsy fake wood door. The upper floor is about 1200 sq ft of 1978 poorly insulated raised ranch. I've spend years chasing down drafts and sealing up every leak I can find. I sealed all the air leaks in the attic and added a lot of insulation which has helped a lot, but I can still feel cold air moving around. My point is, my house is much more poorly insulated than yours.

Last week, it was 14 degrees for several days in a row. With my stove cranking, the basement stayed at 76, while the upper floor got to 66. If that same stove was in your house instead of mine, I'm thinking you could easily add 10 degrees to both values.

I've had my stove for 19 years. Yes I have had really cold days when I wished I could get the upper floor a bit warmer, but the result would be not being able to enjoy sitting in the basement watching it because it would be 90 degrees down there. I love love love the even heat that the soapstone gives off. It doesn't really start radiating until the stove collects the heat up to about 400 degrees and then really starts to disperse it. Once the fire is down to the coaling stage, it still stays at 400 degrees for several hours before I have to add any wood. If you're going to be doing a lot of cold starts, don't go with soapstone. If you're fine running 24/7 and just throwing a log or two in every few hours, I really think you'd love it.

As for the size thing, I'm thinking a hybrid stove would probably work great for you. On the warmer days, you can keep it in burn tube mode, skip the cat and just add as much or little wood as you want. On the really cold days, you can fill it up and use the cat for the longer burn. Today is a raw 47 degree rainy day. I literally have a single split in the stove now just to keep the dampness out of the house. The stove is at 350 degrees on the single log and doing it's job.

Long story short, if I ever move again and get an actually well insulated house, I would not hesitate to get the new Hearthstone Heritage hybrid. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

 

[ironglen]

I have an older non-cat Heritage. It's in my finished basement, at least the first 800sq ft of it. The rest is an unheated drafty garage separated by a flimsy fake wood door. The upper floor is about 1200 sq ft of 1978 poorly insulated raised ranch. I've spend years chasing down drafts and sealing up every leak I can find. I sealed all the air leaks in the attic and added a lot of insulation which has helped a lot, but I can still feel cold air moving around. My point is, my house is much more poorly insulated than yours.

Last week, it was 14 degrees for several days in a row. With my stove cranking, the basement stayed at 76, while the upper floor got to 66. If that same stove was in your house instead of mine, I'm thinking you could easily add 10 degrees to both values.

I've had my stove for 19 years. Yes I have had really cold days when I wished I could get the upper floor a bit warmer, but the result would be not being able to enjoy sitting in the basement watching it because it would be 90 degrees down there. I love love love the even heat that the soapstone gives off. It doesn't really start radiating until the stove collects the heat up to about 400 degrees and then really starts to disperse it. Once the fire is down to the coaling stage, it still stays at 400 degrees for several hours before I have to add any wood. If you're going to be doing a lot of cold starts, don't go with soapstone. If you're fine running 24/7 and just throwing a log or two in every few hours, I really think you'd love it.

As for the size thing, I'm thinking a hybrid stove would probably work great for you. On the warmer days, you can keep it in burn tube mode, skip the cat and just add as much or little wood as you want. On the really cold days, you can fill it up and use the cat for the longer burn. Today is a raw 47 degree rainy day. I literally have a single split in the stove now just to keep the dampness out of the house. The stove is at 350 degrees on the single log and doing it's job.

Long story short, if I ever move again and get an actually well insulated house, I would not hesitate to get the new Hearthstone Heritage hybrid. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

View attachment 306625

I apologize in advance, but I can't help but notice and ask: is that a real bird right next to your stove and a cat? Beautiful green color nonetheless!

 

[rudysmallfry]

I apologize in advance, but I can't help but notice and ask: is that a real bird right next to your stove and a cat? Beautiful green color nonetheless!

LOL yes. That's my Eclectus parrot Jack. He gets so close to that stove, I swear I'm going to smell chicken cooking one day.